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The Weekly Cheek
The Weekly Cheek

Episode · 1 year ago

4. Is transparency how we move forward?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this epsiode we talk about the importance of being transparent, particularly for people who have privilege. This episode contains some discussion of sexual harrassment, but no detailed accounts.

Find us on the web at www.cheekmedia.com.au, on Instagram at www.instagram.com/cheekmediaco on Facebook at www.facebook.com/cheekmediaco, on Twitter at www.twitter.com/cheekmediaco, and on LinkedIn at www.linkedin.com/company/69318475 

Hello, I'm Christ and Parison Otto and I'm had a focus and and we're co founders of cheek media. Go this is the week the cheek podcast. I'm extremely privileged as well. So this is a really diverse job. Fuck, I don't even know what to say that. Besides, it's grossed even the good guys, if you're out there, I have noticed how I don't even know what happens. So I've noticed, and this is obviously not that widespread, I don't think, but there's a particular community of people online who are spending so much time apologizing for what they have and the privileges that they have possessed or possessed now, that they actually let that get in the way of getting things done. Yeah, so I'm very privileged. Thank you so much to my parents. So I grew up in like a upper middle class household, probably middle class of my own accord, like Postgrad educated, White, third generation immigrant, and I have a lot of privilege and I did spend there were a couple of years where I felt like I looking back, I feel like I did spend a lot of them just feeling really bad that I've been offered all of these opportunities in life and I realize now that I'm a little bit older, are first of all, I realize how much my parents, and particularly my grandparents, actually sacrificed so that I could have this kind of privilege. And I think that is like, I think that's the immigrant mentality is to, you know, come to Australia, in this case, to make sure that your kids have a better life in their kids have a better life. But because I was like so far removed, because my I think my dad had more of that mindset. was like, Oh well, because his dad came to Australia and left everything in Italy, and so my dad is more like more in the mindset of, you know, first generation Australian. I need to work really hard because my dad gave up so much for me, but he didn't really pass that on to me and my sister. It was more you know, my sister and just kind of like cruise long been like yeah, life's so easy. I shouldn't speak for her. I did that. I was just like cool w WHO and only recently, since he passed away, actually, did I real my grandpa passed away, did I realize how much he actually sacrificed, which kind of change things for me because when I realized that, I thought, well, I felt not putting this on to anyone else, but I felt it's almost a disservice to his sacrifice that I spend all my time feeling bad about everything that I have. And I feel like a lot of people get trapped in this mentally where they feel so bad and it's just like disclaim a city whenever they say anything, because they have to take all of this time to, you know, recognize their privilege, recognize everything, they have, an experience, etc. Etc. So that their message is so diluted and they kind of are just caught in this ongoing circular argument with themselves because they don't believe that they can stand up for certain issues because they have an experience in themselves, and I think that is a disservice to those who can't speak up. Yeah, I'm of the mentality definitely, where it's like you need to in order to justify your privilege and to you need to make use of it. In a way, it's like you have more doom, more you know that you know better, do better. Yeah, I'm extremely privileged as well, so this is a really diverse chat. Fuck, when I think about it, my parents were from extremely different household so my mother was from a very upper class, affluent family and my father was from an extremely low income family. It was like very much a situation of my mother. Her father was an account of that had his own corporation sort of thing, and her mother was a house life and lived in like the northern sort of beaches suburbs of Sydney. Yeah, yeah, the North Shore Loty, dumb HMM. And then my father sort of his mother was definitely a very much a victim and stick violence. His Dad was an alcoholic in the navy and she basically singlehandedly was a nurse and raised the five children herself. It was really rough, I think. Yeah, for me it's kind of a strange situation where growing up we were very upper middle class. MMM, my parents did really well. They traveled a lot for work internationally, they earned a lot, bla blah. We lived in just like a normal suburb, like on our outside of Sydney, and I had everything I needed and it was lovely. And then they...

...made a decision to quit their jobs and move us to orange when I was a near eight and when we got to orange. We definitely moved to a low income household because they couldn't really find jobs. There was a massive struggle there, which eventually led to a lovely, fucking, excruciating divorce and a lot of problems and a lot of money problems. So when I went to university, I basically had to. I had their help, but I basically was on my own in terms of I had to work two jobs. When I was in on campus, living on campus, my mom gave me a few thousand dollars, but out of the twenty two Thousan dollars that it cost to be there, I had two scholarships, worked two jobs. All of my income from one job solely went to pay the accommodation for the year and I think my mom gave me like a few thousand dollars, but like that was really pushing it. Yeah, so, and obviously that's still privilege. Like to go to university in itself and to be able to get a combination on campus is like is is a big thing. It was quite painful, though, because living on campus are my close friends. are very much some people who acknowledge the privilege and everything that they have, and I think that's like our biggest thing is, like don't hide it if your parents have a lot of money, like that's actually worse. Yeah, don't be like this good is four hundred dollars men. Yeah, it's just a bit ridiculous. Like just be up front. Is always my motto with things. Like I really love transparency surrounding like well, is you like my one of my friends is like, Oh, my parents are paying off my hex as I go. I know. I mean, I don't, I'm not. I'm not demanding that knowledge, but thanks for letting me know, like, because it's easier for me to feel like a pay I would sit with people that going to the dining hall and their parents were paying, like if, especially their international student, their parents are paying four times the normal amount for their university things, plus are accommodation, plus they're spending money, and these people would be like, Oh, this food is shit, and I would sit there and be like, are you serious, like what? We have two salad bars and like three meat options and like this is so good. And people say, Oh, this is fucking disgusting, and I'm like, we get it, you are just exerting this like disgusting attitude and for me it's like, I completely agree. If you have privilege, if you have money, it's worse to decline an opportunity. Like one of my friends recently attended to dinner where it was like a lot of affluent people and she was attending as a plus one and a lot of people giving her like networking opportunities and like well, we could help set you up with a job, Bah, Bah, blah, and she was really like, Oh, I don't want that, like, I don't want to do that, like Blah, blah, blah, and I just said kind of like I said, well, I'm never going to go to that dinner. Yeah, and I'm never going to meet those people. So declining those opportunities for yourself doesn't do anything but put you on the back foot when you don't need to be. Yeah, take the opportunity, take the privilege have been given to you and use it. MMM, because it's not like they, if she said no, they're going to go find someone marginalized to feel the judge exactly it. Those people aren't going to go, oh, we better find someone who's just so like a press and the needs this position. It will just go to someone else of the same caliber. Yeah, but it's like she's on these people. It's like I've always earned what I've got and I'm like, well, then take this one. Yeah, you know, because she is someone like that. She's extremely ambitious and all these things, and I'm like, I completely agree with the sentiment, I understand it. I spent a lot of time with the same sort of ideas, but I'm like, you need to use this because it will help someone else in future if you can use this to the benefit of others. Yeah, exactly. And it's, how a hard thing because I constantly feel guilty for things, and I mean I'm not even in I'm not in a comfortable position at all. Like my income, I realized last week, was on the poverty line. Oh, I didn't actually realize that, but I looked at like what a single income is on a weekly basis and like what's on the poverty line on it's me, I didn't even know, because I don't feel that way. Yeah, but that's not saying anything about what the poverty line is and what we should be living on. But I've just never felt like I was anything but middle asks because I've always been giving those opportunities. Yeah, so for me, it was actually quite a shock because I was like, Oh am I struggling? I was just taken aback by I actually didn't even know that, like that wasn't like a fine amount. Yeah, well, I guess there's also a difference, and not to discount your poverty las salary, but like, I guess there is a difference when someone is making that who like has a family or it like he's doing it between two jobs and working eighty hours a week. I agree, I suppose absolutely. The conditions of my work are really good. I work part time and study, so that plays into it as well. But the other thing is for me is it's probably about the education surrounding use of money. So I know how to budget my week. I know what's an appropriate amount of rent to pay, I know how much has spent and like if I overspend or something, sure, but like I'm on the poverty line, but I saved a third of my salary this year. So it's confusing because I'm like it's really hard to gage. Like what is the factor? And obviously it's like for me, I've actually been given the privilege of all these things to be in a position that I've made myself comfortable on of my...

...own accord. But it's really hard for other people to do that when they've only known poverty and things like that, whereas I kind of had the experience of both sides of the coin and not saying nextuse. I'm a white person in heterosexual comfortable relationship with, and supported by friends and family and all these things, like with a government job, B Blah. Like I understand that I am still well off in all these other rich ways and I'm about to I'm about start a postgraduate degree, so it's not even close to being oppressed or struggling at all. But it's just interesting when I would kind of heard that, I was like, I just never even thought of that before, because every other aspect of my life is just filled with immense privilege. Yeah, so it's a confusing thing, but I my thought is, when considering your own privilege, it's just important to in some capacity be transparent about the nature of your sort of like, for example, one of my best friends has a colleague who says like they're great at saving, but she lives at home, doesn't pay a bill, is on a first year solicitor's income essentially, and it's just a bit ridiculous, because she said, like, if I move out of home, I will be so poor, and I'm like, that's actually really, really offensive to all the people that have to work so hard to cover their rent. Yeah, because I have plenty of money to spare, but what you're saying is that you have a higher lifestyle than me. Yeah, and it's actually insulting people who say they're really good at saving when they live at home with no bills paid. That's the thing. You're actually not good at saving. It's just like you're not spitter and have expenses. No, it's exactly you can probably still paying spending more on like social activities than your eye. But imagine lacking the self awareness thing. That's a fucking skill. That's so true. Actually, like you're not skilled, you actually have all the benefits, and I think that's the that's the actual core of the fury of people who are marginalized as like yeah, you don't even know what you don't know. Yes, and it's like, I know, I'm a victim of that as well. I definitely I'm unaware of a lot of things. I'm and experiences, because I will always have had the privilege growing up of like a comfortable sort of family home and things like this, but I think that the few re really lies within, like you actually have no idea what savings are. Yeah, you've never been at risk, your safety is never kind of come into question in that capacity because your family was always been there a support you. Yeah, and it's really offensive because your lack of transparency and understanding about what a struggle is and what's broke and what the value of money is is completely subjective to your experience and it's just fucking rude. Yeah, exactly, just lacking even the insight to know where to go for the facts on these things. She's not interested, and I think that's the worst thing. Like, I like my parents. So my parents gave me a down payment for this house, where this lovely home where in now, and they gave me a significant amount, was about a third of the property or just under a third of the property value, and that's the only reason I am able to own a home. Yeah, I mean, I haven't asked them for any money since I moved in. Yeah, and I've been fully independent for that time, but I recently took a pay cut to change my jobs. It's way situation and I think that talking about the poverty line, and I mean it's not on the poverty line, but I took a pay cut definitely. So I guess monetarily, I'm looking to the outside world less privileged. Yeah, however, no, like I don't even have to move out of this house because I don't rent it my own. No one can remove with me from this home. I'm still making enough to pay all of my bills. I slit all of the bills with my boyfriend who lives here. And even though, again like, his job is like less secure, I supposed, than mine, but even like, we both have savings because we've both been in privileged positions and I know that if worse comes to worse, I can call my parents and they can get me out of basically any kind of financial trouble I could have possibly gotten myself in like that. That safe net is always there and if, you know, something were to happen and my parents couldn't help me, I have uncle's and Auntie's and grandparents who could all help me, and I think that that is like that kind of goes beyond because when you were saying, like my salaries on the PO poverty line, I think the privilege goes beyond that kind of money that you have coming in and it's also, like you said, money literacy. It's it's very expensive to be poor. Yes, it is expensive to pay you a Red Joe twice or twelve times a year than it is to pay it once a year. Every time you're laid on a bill, you get a fee when I'm laid on a bills because I forgot about it and I deserve to pay the feet. But if you are later on a bill because you cannot afford it, it becomes more expensive. And you know there's be that a lot of people who wouldn't even know that. Like phones on plans so much more expensive, but when you look at it from the outside, it's like, Oh, I could get the newest iphone and pay for few nine dollars a month like that sounds really great. You wouldn't even think some people would do you have them once you're paying exactly exactly, and...

...some people wouldn't even be in the buscisition where they would consider that, because I'm pretty sure someone told me that to my face once and I was like, Oh, yeah, it's hard. And also corporations prey on the poor is that things like a to pay. Oh, I despise after pay. I'm victim of up to but I used to work in retail and see people coming in, especially at Christmas, and like I would see people putting tender pairs of us on after pay. Yeah, and it honestly broke my soul. Yeah, because it's really sad. It's really it is horrible to look at because you're like, they're also banking on lady fees. Yeah, banking and the not being able to repay those like a mountaining exactly. Well, even the fact that I don't really buy much anymore. I don't really have too much, you know, fun spending, not because I banned myself from doing it, I justlike honestly don't spend a lot of money anymore. But one of the reasons is because I've got into like a more minimalist lifestyle. To Fuck, you're sitting behind this wall of equipment. It's like very valuable. It's a complete wall. Most of it's not mine, but I have adopted more of a minimalist lifestyle and I have stopped looking at it. Stop Anyway. And I also am educated on like the evilness of capitalism and commercialism, because I'm like, well, corporations just tell us we need these things so that we spend money me. So I have been able to because I have had access to a lot of education, which I'm, you know, paying off after the fact because I don't have to pay it up front. I was able to educate myself and understand like a sales not just to sale, like it's not there, not doing it for us, it's not for the customer, it's for, you know, business and fast fashion brands. They their agenda is to make money, and when you start to understand that, I think that's when people start to consume less. So I'm then now more educated about how that stuff works and the less likely to spend a lot of money. But it's also just habit. Horrible when a lot of activists come out and say, like, if you shop fast fashion like you are the problem, that's so privileged, and it's like yeah, exactly, how can you not even identify that? That's coming from an immense place of like well, I can go out, like a lot of people don't even have the time to at a second hand shops and things like that because they are let alone. They don't like fit everyone and a Ford things. I know it's it's so bigoted and privilege in so many ways that can't identify that. Like I'm of size fourteen, sixteen. I can't even go to optops and find things that, yeah, work for me, and like that. I'm a normal size as exactly. Like it's just crazy. And the costs. Yeah, it like I try, I'm not very good with I don't shop it like extreme fast fashion shit, like I'm not going to name names, but like there's something that you can just tell her obscenely cheap. Yeah, two years ago I did. Yeah, and it is just different. Caught like especially with things like black Friday and quick frenzy, and they're sort of condemning people like on this day and Amazon delivery track leaves, and this is a fact, every ninety three seconds somewhere the world. Right. HMM, why are you condemning someone who is trying to save some money on the kids Christmas presents? Yeah, on during a sale, and I get there's a lot of issues surrounding like mega sales are like bump the prices the weeks before to like make the sales look better, and like there's a lot of issues surrounding this. But I get that like there and we obviously wrote an uncle by Friday. So you know, like there's huge issues with like the environmentally impacts, with m days like that, but it's like it's really hard to just blanket condemn people from particip for participating in those things when some people need to to be able to afford and break up their spending for the rest of the year as well. Yeah, like it's coming from this place of like, what do you know? How it feels? Well, ironically, I think that the people who are sharing this like anti black Friday exce and like antifast fashion, are the people who are first to you know, jump up and apologize for their privilege. Yeah, and which brings us to the next topic. I don't believe that apologizing for your privilege is particularly productive. I don't think it's helpful to the people that aren't privileged either. Exactly. I don't think it's making anyone feel better. It's actually just a weird way of acknowledging and being like, I'm sorry, this happened to me. It's virtue signaling, in my opinion, because and like your friend who got offered that job, like imagine someone who, let's say someone was in the position of your friend who got the job offer at the dinner. Yeah, I don't know your friends. So let's just say this person is like, you know, an activist or like has some passions about, you know, let's say, just women in the workplace. If a person like that gets a job offer, even if they are in a very privilege position, and you know, in quotes, could find a job on their own, if they take a job at a company that is probably full of Neptism, and people who have just been hired, like a person who is hungry to make change,...

...put into an organization or a company like that has so much impact because they can actually start to make a change. And if you are privileged in the workforce then and if you particularly if you're in a higher up position, you can actually start to make change in the workplace and, you know, higher start influencing hiring, like diverse hires or pushing for more environmentally friendly practices, things like cultural sensitivity, awareness and training and things like that. So people, even though you might be privilege and I think that. I also think that a lot of the time activists are the most privileged people because, like activists have to time and the resource exactly, and like have been taught. It's just that, unfortunately, in the world that we live in, someone who does have that privilege, who is white, who is straight, who is Australian, is going to actually attract more of an audience when they stand up and say something then someone who is really oppressed or marginalized because no one like they don't get off at a platform a lot of the time, which is why I think that it is a responsibility for privilege people to take advantage of their privilege and use it to you know, rectify things, balance the scales, whatever needs to be done. But it's also a weird expectation, I think, for some organizations of things that they need to like all kind of like we need a more diverse culture at this like not for a profit or like in this sector, Bubba Blah, and it's like, but do you understand that volunteering is not an option? Yeah, for a lot of diverse people. Exact, they don't have time. Then I know the energy that, honestly, that it's not the job to educate you, yeah, or like fill in your gaps or like hit your quotas. Yes, and that's really unfortunate, like it's really unfortunately, like, oh, we need this person to like, you know, average our age rain. You needed more diverse culture at the workplace or the organization or whatever, and I just think, like one, do not make this person feel ever like they've been high for that reason. That's actually disgusting and you're actually just yea again. It's pure virtue signaling. Yeah, it's God, it's part of the problem. Yeah, it is, and yeah, I it just gets me. So it I don't even know what to say that. Besides, it's gross. So this is kind of the opposite of what you just said. I know someone who has a friend who is indigenous and he was studying law. I think he's a lawyer now, I'm not sure, but he got an internship of one of the top law firms and in his signature it had his name and then I had indigenous intern on the signature. Oh my God, that's awful, and my friend, who is his friend, was like what the fuck, like that is terrible, and he was kind of like well, you know, it is what it is. I'm happy the opportunity and I was like that's interesting, because I don't I'm not in the business of telling people that they should be offended by things that I find I'm offended for on their behind. Like it's absolutely messed up of the law firm to do that completely. And just the fact that he has to be identified as that every single time he sends an email, because it's like because to me that's just like, oh, like, you can't see him, so you need to know that he's indigenous just in case that might come up, and because we're trying to show you exactly all about their look, it's not about that person. Yes, I'm sure he isn't extremely capable individual that was probably hired on merit. Yeah, but it's like, why then, do you have to label it like that and for so much offense? Yeah, okay, even if he wasn't a offend of that's like it's actually so lightly that someone would look at that and be deeply hurt. Yes, exactly, and I also wonder if, because obviously I don't have any experience like that, because I've never felt like that as a woman personally, very lucky, Hashtag blessed to have not been felt like that, to have not, Oh yeah, damn, felt like that in the workplace. I have another places. Anyway, moving on. Yeah, yeah, well, I've had a job int like that or we just guy. Yes, well, in what do you apply for? Any government job? If you apply for a government job, they have like diversity like boxes that you have to take, and one of them is women, which is really interesting, because why is being a woman a social group? Yeah, a social group that's like identify. was diverse population. Very confusing, but I ticked it. I always to get because, like it's kind of weird to apply not take it because I am so yeah, I don't know. It's always confusing. You'd be weird not yes, because then they probably call him be like Um, Hannah, woman's saying, I just want to check if you're a liar. Now you can't not take it. When I got the call for the job and I thought they said, you know, we want to come, we want you to come in and take an exam, I was like, I'm old, this is a government role. It's pretty stock standard M and I entered the room and it was a test with it was they had three hundred applicants. They short listed to fifteen and then so I was in the room with I think it was about eight or nine. So it's only a probably half of the people that were shortlisted, but I was the only woman and you were significantly young. I was at least fifteen to twenty years younger than the next person in...

...the room. Essentially interest they were all in full suits, men, bearded, definitely, probably some grandchildren popped out of them, like really, yeah, wow, some I would say they're age rangers from thirty seven to fifty eight. Holy Crap. Yeah, so I felt really out of my depth. It was a bit of a boy's Club. They or kind of knew each other and I was just like a completely external person coming in take this exam and then I par Maast it. They said I was in the top three. So then they I was brought in for a panel interview, which was like a fifteen minute like I had fifty minutes to prepare from the questions they gave me that I presented for thirty and then they interview actually went for a total of seventy five minutes because they wanted to ask me so many questions about my cv nice and I thought this is really interesting. I must be going good. They said like I was one of the top testers and Bubba Blah, like I really performed well and they were like a ce be so interesting for someone of your age or your age, your age, and I was like Oh, they kept bringing it up. Yeah, and I knew that I was probably because obviously there was only three of us that, I think when for the finance few in the person perform was a man. So I was like, well, was there another woman? I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, where there women on the panel? Yes, two out of for okay, and so I was just confused. I was just sitting there answering the questions and I was a bit frazzled because it went for so long that it was just a bit of an uncomfortable experience. And then I just left thinking it's not going to get it. I know I've done well, but it's not. I'm not going to get it. And then a week later I got the call and they said to me. They said, Oh, you know, the feedback is that your application was fantastic, your presentation was fantastic, but you just don't have the same amount of experience as the other candidates. And I just thought, but you knew that, because I was in how weeen to twenty years younger than the other candidates. Yeah, so are you meeting at the especially in things like government rolls? Do you have to meet a quota in who you shortlist for your job applications? Like, I don't understand how it works, but my maybe I wasn't the best us in the job. I couldn't have some experience? But walking away from that, I just thought, was I just feeling a box for you? I don't know. Well, it's and hopefully you take this at face something I feel like enough times far has passed, but there is a chance that they, you know, potentially could have brought you in, could have shortlisted you initially and then we're possibly surprised at how well you did on the test. Yeah, had you considered that? Um, because I guess if, like in government roles, like you know, you could. Maybe you have to just take the top people from the WHO performed on the test. Yeah, I think. I think that's what happened, because it's an external marker. Yeah, right, so I'm I had to go to a separate recruiter, because I have a recruiter, to take the exam and they marked it and gave them the best so that's that is what happened. Essentially I must have outperformed with other candidates. Yeah, I got into the top three and then they've in the interview. But again, like why were I just like like don't waste my time. No, agree, because I went in for some my lunch breaks. I was like really not, I was going in for two a seventy five minute exam and then a seventy five minute interview two weeks in a row. Yeah, quite onerous, and especially because, like the interview itself was, like it was a lot and it was hard ask questions about my regiment, my like policy experience and things like that and, you know, different and not profit work I've done. And like I was likely taken aback by how interested they were. Yeah, which is why I was like, I didn't think I walked away think there's one position here. Yeah, I'm not going to get it there, because I knew the other candidates were going to be men who were forty years old. So of course I've got it, but I can't just walked away bit disenfranchise with the process. Like look, I was probably I gave it a red hot go, but I knew from the start, like I had a funny feeling from the style that this was not good. MMM, I think when you walk into a like shortlisted room like that and see that there's all of these people like, it's we can't compete with that kind of experience. It's just like we don't we haven't had enough years of life. But also, for a twenty two year old law graduate and, you know, White Female, I'm walking out of there like they've oppressed me and it's like I can't even imagine how someone else might feel. Yeah, like I felt like a bit, like I'm a bit of a quode, like I'm a bit of a box tick as a woman, but it's like that is a ridiculous like I can't even imagine what someone would feel who's actually part of a marginalized group. Yeah, for me, I walked away thinking, like why do I feel offended, like this should actually just spur me on. Yes, yeah, but it is. Yeah, God, I actually work in an industry dominated by women's Communications is, you know, dominant, dominated by women, as is, you know, marketing. I don't know about advertising might be, yeah, but anyway, so I don't really necessarily foresee that happening to me as much, which is nice. But the people who were the heads of like, you know, PR agencies, marketing agencies, calm, they're always men, like men are always at the top of these. So I think that it probably for me it would be more of like just the glass...

...ceiling, like it's easy for you to come in, but you can't go you can't go up, you just stay there. Yes, you keep it cool. Well, that's it. And I think, especially in the legal industry in the past few years, I think what's funny is that when you're in the legal industry, and I'm not really I'm pretending right now. When you're in the legal industry, though, you kind of know that it's dominated by men, like you know that bad things happened to associates and clocks and things, and you know that like juniors have junior females have bad experiences with seeing your male partners occasionally, like it just happens. Yeah, and that's kind of just like a public secret. Yeah, you know, and it's a stigma. I think that's stuck around. And then last year when the High Court judge was sort of it came out that he has sort of likes actually harassed hit one of his former clerks, God associate judges associated. Sorry, I can't actually remember what a position was. Sorry. It was like a shock to the public that someone of such a stature and a sort of moral high ground would have done something like this. What, like a priest. I know, that's exactly what I thought. I said that too, and it was like the shock. Do you understand that? It comes back to the same perspective on like the Weinstein situation, where it's like you don't say anything as a woman, not because you like it, not because you consented to it, but because your career may be destroyed if you try. Yeah, I sometimes there's a woman you just decide like then and there, in that moment, like this is actually traumatizing. Yeah, but I need my career and you just put your feelings aside from them, which is not okay and it's not right. But I think that it's like very comparative in a lot of industries. It's just surprising when the public is like gob smacked by something like this, yeah, when the industry itself is very aware and not surprised. Yeah, and I well, I think that opens up to another topic. Women who are in privileged positions, or anyone really, anyone in a privilege position. I think they have more of a responsibility to speak out about something like that because, and I say this a lot and I know it's not it's not really very good, but I hope that it's enough to be somewhere. Yeah, but I hold women to a high stand at the men a lot of the time and I think that's just my natural kind of instinct and I again I don't really think it's ideal, but I think it's because women can do a lot more damage to the cause of feminism than men can, because when a man is saying something about feminism, it can, I it can arguably be dismissed as him being uninformed and it's also quite typical, like we've heard it all before. But when a woman says something anti feminist, feminist, it kind of it can actually damage the movement. said that edge lye bishop, I had idea. Shout out, shout out persons ality other side as little, one of many, one of many, and so when there is a woman up at the top, and I understand that sometimes even a woman being towards the top is not she's still not safe from, you know, being fired or whatever, but it's kind of like this Sheryl Sandberg argument is that she put places the blame on individuals for not trying hard enough, when it's the actual fact is that they were not offered the position or the privilege. Is An institutional issue exactly. So I do believe I get really disappointed to Rice see women like she'll Sandberg, you know, getting to take the MIC and say, well, I did it, so why can't all of these other women? Because I think that is the responsibility of women who make it, whether, you know whatever means that. Maybe maybe nepotism, maybe they tried really hard, maybe they were really privileged, who knows? Whatever the case, maybe it's I think it's a responsibility of them to, you know, reach down and like help the next person. I like was like I I've been watching. I watched the film bombshell. MMM, I've watched a couple of times now. I quite I don't like the structure, but it doesn't matter what I think. We film. They're working. It's about Fox News and the sort of downfall of Roger ailes and the sexual assault harassment lawsuit. Yeah, and Chloris at least the wrong plays Megan Kelly, who's like a lead anchor for Fox and was a law firm partner, I think before that. And when she approaches Margot Robbie's character to USK, like have you been harassed by a Roger? and Marko's like how did you know? And then shelie's like, well, we find each other because essentially in that moment, like marks being forced to like, you know, perform sexual acts on him in order to kind of further career. When she's out forever, right and like that character, Margo Robbie's character kind of says like well, why haven't you done anything about it? Like you like it's actually completely in your power, and out is one of the leading anchors with her own show at Fox News, m to do something about this, but you're just shutting up and you've never said anything. And then you just like got to the top and that kept being quite even the kind of...

...knew what was happening to me and others. and She'Lory, she lease Theron said it's not my responsibility to protect you, and she said it's all of our responsibility. M and it's like that's actually a really good argument, because it's actually not the job of people like and it kind of came out with some with the whole Weinstein thing, with Angela Na Jolie. Yes, love, why don't like Hook like I think people throwing blame and I think when we throw blame, where at risk of making the problem not the man, which I think is the biggest turnoff of things like that. Yeah, but I would hope that it's something had happened to me and I worked my way up in an industry and then something happened to a younger person who told me. I hope that always and forever I will be the person to do something about it. So do I, and this is kind of I'm going to argue both sides because it's things that I thought about. fucking hater, devil's advocate. I didn't use that time, scifigly. Um, so I so, okay, I haven't seen bombshell, but so I'm just going to make some assumptions. But okay, so someone who is a woman, who is a what is she an anchor? Yeah, of her own show at Fox News, probably doesn't have as much power as you might think they do from the outside. So I suppose. I don't know when you told me that scene. I'm going to go watch the movie. Using the words it's not my job to protect you. Is Messed up. Yeah, like what a thing to say to a victim when you exactly know exactly what kind of position they're in. Like terrible. I think she just says it because they're both victims. So it's like, well, it's like palming it because you can take because we're both in the same boat, but you're not really know exactly. So it's very terrible. But also, just because she is an anchor, she doesn't necessarily have the power like she's she probably still doesn't have enough power in that instance. I'm talking pathetical because again, have not seen the movie. I always think because I am a fairly resilient person who has okay, this is bird Riston who was wants to kill. It's really aggressive. Yeah, and I have the privilege of very good mental health and First Child Syndrome and all these things that just have kind of combined in I'm someone who was like, if I see injustice, I must act, take action. I would be more likely to be the person who does actually stand up, because this actually happened in and I'm allowed to give details because we went to mediation, but in a previous workplace I actually resigned from a job because the circuit, the situation was unacceptable, completely unacceptable, and I resigned because I had another job and I didn't need the money, but there were lots of women who worked there who I was like, well, that is like this is a completely unacceptable situation and I am willing and happy to resign and take this to the next level because I have the benefit of not needing the money and also the benefit of like good resilience and I'm not going to be scarred from this forever. So I am going to take it there. But a lot of people are not in that position and I think it goes even beyond the privilege of being, you know, white and middle class and etc. Etc. It's actually like the kind of person that you are and I kind of I don't know, it's I really would only apply that to myself, I think, because I don't really think it's prefer to protect it on to others. But when I look at, you know, the Sheryl Sandberg's of the world, I'm like that is so unfair, like how dare you truly, because she has shown shown us that she has the power, she has the privilege, but she's not willing to bring women up with her because she thinks that they have to, what, fight the same fight that she fought, even though she had the privilege of, like, all of the child care that she had. For a one example, where very small example, and I just think that's totally messed up. Like why not? I don't know, I'd be think that Hillary Clinton said in the documentary, and I think it was from her speech. I don't know if it was when she lost to trump or when she lost the nomination to her bomber, but she said, even though the glass ceiling is not shattered, it's some got cracks. Is what she said. That was a nomination. Yes, okay, Great. I think it's a shame and I have lots of thoughts about this. I think it's a shame that the first woman to do anything is going to have a terrible time, frankly, and I think it's really disappointing when that woman, who's not killy Clinton, by the way, but that woman, then turns around and is like well, now you have to struggle as much as I did. Like that's that's so messed up. Was it's like what I really liked about Julia Gillard when she was talking when she did her book, to a recently for like the women leadership book, and she was saying, like the thing that we've learned from places like Noi in New Zealand is it gets easier. Yeah, for every woman that comes after the first. Yeah, and she's like, if my, I hope that can serve well in this country, because I had it rough but like I hope that I've paid some sort of way for like a slight, slightly better opportunity and circumstance for the next person to fulfill that role. Yeah, and she absolutely did, like she and she took so much crap and there's like, I...

...mean, surely there's no way that the second woman can cop as much like as she did? No, surely she was, honestly, for the first female prime minister to be unmarried, MMM and childless. Yep, is in honestly very interesting. Yeah, I I. Yeah, I applaud her. Yeah, I'm really tough. That backlash. Yes, for sure, and she kind of implied that this was like the thing that kind of set off the whole thing was that on her very first in a very first press conference as prime minister, she answered a question that a jealous asked about her jacket, a jealoust was like, Oh, who, where did you get your jacket? Or who is? Who's your jacket by? And she answered it and she said, I wish to God that I did not answer that question, because she's like, I feel like I just started open the floodgates. Exactly exactly, which, again it's like it's not her fault. Yeah, well, Oh my God, she was being polite. Yeah, exactly, and she was like that was it. Yeah, that's horrid. Yeah, yeah, and her first imagine what that would have looked like if she, on her first day as their first woman prime minister, was like ignoring questions. That also would have been bad. I know, it's I mean it's actually interesting because I didn't think about it until we started this podcast. Look, you right now that I've had multiple workplaces where like serious issues have arisen of this nature. In one of my first workplaces, which I was there for a few years, there was a manager who was extremely touchy with underage girls, including myself, HMM, and I never thought about it, to be honest, and that's ridiculous, because I'm a really hard line feminist and because it was happening to me I thought, oh, that's not that's not what it is. Yeah, and then, no, I never said anything and I thought was only happening to me. HMM. And when I was about to leave, and I was, I was literally on my way like a week away, one of the other managers had discovered that another the girl, had quit for on that premise. Right, and is that why you left? No, I was just moving on, okay, and the manager came to me and said, would you be willing to like sign a statement or Blah, Blah Blah. But this man that had done these things was retiring in six months, right, and I was moving. So, yeah, I just wanted to be done. Yeah, and I didn't know how extensive it was and Blah Blah. I just knew he wasn't very well liked, but like I didn't know how briefly it ran, with like the touching and stuff. M I mean, I still don't like I don't know if it was like if what happened to me was worse than what happened to anyone else. Yeah, but I only thought about it like in the past couple of years. I just thought, well, I fucked up because I had been there for years longer than the other girls that this had happened to. Yeah, and I was in the same position as them, like technically, on like a technicality basis of the position, but I was in a much more prominent position and like the social side of the workplace. Yeah, and my statement probably would have done something serious and I just was like begone. Yeah, and because I was like over it, and I think at the time I thought, oh, he'll be gone soon. Yeah, and like I just it's honestly also a reflection of the fact that what I thought happened to me wasn't wrong until years later. HMM, because I thought thought it was older male attention. Yeah, and then, as an adult, I've looked back and been like well, that was fucked, to be honest. Yeah, and like that wouldn't fly someone did that to me my current workplace, I would be going to the police. Yeah, so it was just an odd situation. Like I never even tell my parents, like if they listen to this, I'll be like what the fuck are you talking about? Like, honestly, it just didn't wannt something I thought about. I thought, Oh, I'm the favorite, that's what I thought that meant. I am never even thought about it and then like can't. Like, I recently took on a freelance position where I ended up alone with a man in a room for two hours who's actually harassed me, and then I left and I thought, oh, that was awful. HMM. And I left and I called someone and when I called him I started crying. HMM. I was like, Oh my God. When I was in the room, I didn't even think it was bad until I started repeating what he was like threatening. Yeah, and when I started crying, I just thought and then I told my other workplace and they work you go to the police, and then I just didn't. And my bloody job is in criminal fucking law. Yeah, and I was like no, and I can't even imagine it, because I'm also the oldest child person who's like I will stick it to anyone who does it to anyone else in front of me. Yeah, like, if I see something happening, I'm like no, you fuck off. Yeah, like I am the person who, if I'm in the street, like waiting for a train, I look at other women on the platform to make sure everything's okay. Yes, me time I want to train, and I see a man like turning on show to a woman, I watch until he stops. Yeah, like I'm definitely that person that like waits. I've literally like helped a small child off a bus because they weren't sure what was going on. They were sitting with someone that I got bad vibes from and they like looked at me and I was like yeah, come with you and you can sit with me and stuff, like I'm definitely that person. Yeah, but when it happens to me, I'm like, I'm fine, though. Yeah, that's it, and I didn't. I think it actually makes sense. It does. Yeah, but it's like really hard to think about because I'm like why do I treat myself differently? Yeah, and it's like, and why am I not holding these other people accountable when that's what I stand for and that's what I believe in. Yeah, and I don't think of myself was...

...like a victim or survivor of anything. I'm like, Oh, this just happens to everyone. Interesting you say that just remembered something. So prior to the my taking something to mediation, which I also should mention that one of my family members worked there with me, is one of the reasons why I did it a few years prior to that, I used to go to this guy for remedia massage, right, and a lot of people who I knew went there as well to him, and a few things happened in the massage where like the like towel kept slipping down and I kept pulling it up, pulling it up, pulling it up, pulling it up, and I was like he just like held a stream of cod like I knew him as a friend prior to this and he just held up the Stream of conversation and I didn't feel like he was like looking. So I was kind of like, that's weird that the tower keeps slipping like kept pulling it up, Ke kept pulling it up, etc. And I only had the one massage from him, but then a couple of like the other women who also went to him. I don't know exactly how it came out, but it started talking and someone was like, you know, it's like weird, and then we spoke to another massage therapist who was like we do training so that the towel does not sleep, like, the towel never slips, like that's not a thing that happens, right, and we're just like, I've never thought about something like this before. Yeah, and we were like Shit, like that's that's fucked. And then I ended up, like all of us, obviously, we actually got him like removed from hips his position. We were seeing him in like a like pay car. Oh, I understand. It's kind of like when someone like take off. Is You like a free haircut for training? Yes, yeah, correct. You know what, I'm actually going to talk about it in detail because I just realized there's no reason why I should have. Yeah. So, okay, so I used to be part of a gym and he was there and worked in one of the rooms. So basically, the gym owner was just like, like, I'll help you out, mate, like and okay. He was actually used to be a drug addict and he had like rehabilitated himself and was like, you know, on the way, on the road to recovery. Yeah, so there was always an air of like he did it, he's done something really important and that shouldn't be overlooked. So that was why he was giving the opportunity to use that room. Yeah, and so a lot of us like and like guys went as well, the guys and the girls anyway. So this we found out what was happening and eventually communicated, and then the Jim owner actually came to me and was like did this happen in your massage? And I sho got really bad for him because he's really extremely uncomfortable and really angry. And he was like did the towel keep slipping and I was like yes, and he's just like okay, this is what's happened. Really fucked. So he booted him. Obviously we never saw him again, but I then found out that a none. I another one of the women who like had seen him months prior and had that issue and how you'd like like just the same kind of thing, but she hadn't said anything for months and I actually, in my head at that time was like bit fuck, you can't say anything. But then now when, like after that happened, he got booted, like the gym owner was like saying, Oh, you know, like you should all get together and write a complaint and actually like submitted, because he's going to go get another job now, and he did. We knew where he was working, but we'd never did the complaint and it was just because it was kind of like a we all have to get together and we all have to write it down and I don't know, it wasn't even I didn't want to do it. It was kind of just one of those things where it was like well, like I'm glad he's not around me anymore, and we kind of just didn't ever get around to it. So I guess I had. It was very like contradictory because I felt annoyed that one of the women had experienced and hadn't said anything, but then in turn, I had not. Yes, I have not reported it and now I actually have thought about in a long time. So I'm going to report him. But then after that experience there the place where I took a workplace to mediation. Happened after that, because by that time I had kind of like grown to myself more and I was just like no, like this is not allowed and it's not okay. So it is. It's I don't know. I think it's like easy to say Oh, like I should have done more, but in the moment it's kind of I don't know, there's like so many reasons why you don't. Yeah, which is not ideal. I don't want to give an excuse to myself. No, well, with the situation with by like recent situation where I met this person I was doing freelance work for and they so actually harassed me because, like, the thing is, and this is definitely the product of the places I've worked in and like a lot of my work experience, like I lived and worked on campus, so I was exposed to a lot of training for like sexual assault disclosure, mental health issues, like calling ambulances on a variety of mental health issues and like self harm situations.

And I've actually been in those positions before. And then my other work is legal and I worked in like a organization that deals pure luth prisoners. I've worked in places that deals with purely prosecuting criminals, and so it's like I've had a lot of exposure to a lot of really confronting material, HMM, people, facts, all of these things, and for me to be rattled, yeah, but also for me to be like, I understand that I'm quite cynical and I have the worst impression of society. MMM. And it's kind of hard because when I hear like why didn't you warn me about this job and I was traumatized by it, it's so exemplifies it. especially men don't understand the danger other men pose. Yes, when I meet someone who's going into these fields, I'm like, well, it's not like a hard good luck. I hate that because it's like actually, take a minute and realize that this person is going to have to deal with their mental health at some point with this job. Yeah, and it's really important to take it seriously in some capacity and say, like what do you like? I always ask like coworkers are things like what are your methods like? How do you compartmentalize this information and like deal with what you're being confronted with and things like that, and you can't ever really truly do it. Like I think it has a really lasting impacts on like your mental health. I mean it does for me, but it's really unfortunate. I think that there's a like a lack of realization understanding between about the impacts of circumstances and situations and experiences like that. Like I consider myself to be quite a robust person that can deal with that sort of confrontation and I freaked out. Yeah, and it's like I can't even imagine how it would be if someone who's doing that that was their first job or and why isn't it recognized that that would traumatize someone. Like why can't we need to be a bit more alert to the fact that this is a terrible circumstances? Someone doesn't have to experience that. Even you know, when you start a new job ever on it's kind of all rainbows and sunshine. Yeah, like no one will, particularly if it's not like a you know, managements, like you know, you have all the infant now, but when you're coming into a position, a lower position, no one tells you how to navigate the work place. They're just like, HAH, yeah, this is a great and that's so written. Yeah, within Microsoft Word exactly. It is exactly, which I I hate, and it's a such it's such a shame, and that was like one of the so I recently started a new job and one of like the standouts for me was that in the first couple of days, everything was kind of laid out on the table and it was great and it was like these like the struggles that we've had in the past and this is how we've ever become then, and this thing isn't quite like at a hundred percent, but we're working on it. Like it wasn't just like it's gotta be so fun and they on board. Like I just like we shouldn't have to figure that stuff out ourselves, like, even if it's as serious as, you know, like a boss who is Harasser, or even as small as like of this person is like very passive aggressive, and so it would pay, it would you know, so you really well to be really nice to them. So, like that's exactly and it constantly surprises me by how sort of fake and disingenuous the workplace is, in the corporate sort of life is generally because, like he's spend most of your wife, yeah, with these people. This is just like day in, day out, you're going to be dealing with this. Yeah, so why are we still like kind regardsing? I know, like fuck, I can't even deal that. It's from every level of the scale, like, yeah, from everything, from like the absolute stuffiness of how people are in the workplace and just like how like fake emails are and how fake conversation is and just as dribble, to be honest. And it goes from that long, you know, it should go the transparency, especially between women. That's the thing I'm looking for. Even a look. Yeah, even if it's too early to actually say something I'm looking for a like be careful. Yeah, me too, and I think because I've been in the situation where I have. I've been in both situations. I've been a situation when I have said like watch out, yeah, and I've been a situation where I have been like, Oh, I don't want to ruin their day. Yeah, because some people take us to risk on a job. Obviously you don't know everything, so I don't want to them to come in the first day and be like this thing sucks along. I just yeah, I don't. But I think the whole culture needs to change and I think that, once again, the people in the privileged positions are the people who should be changing it. I mean, in a way, I guess what we just said is like kind of semi counterproductive, because we've gone from saying like well, the women in charge and the people in prominent positions, even the good guys, if you're out there, send us an email. Yeah, please let us know if you are one, if you are experience, you want to know of that. Like someone is being harassed and yeah, it's actually probably not good to turn to the new person and say watch out, yeah, probably should be doing something way more productive agreed. But you know, if you're if you're in ste like a semi sort of not an entry level but like an associate level position, like an officer, a coordinate of something, and that's all you can do, if you're only approach to safety and protection of others is like letting them, letting them know. Yeah, should...

...be doing it. Yeah, if you should be different with the most your candy. Yeah, for sure, for sure. If you found us just totally a relatable at work, you come back next Wednesday for a new episode. Until then, head to cheek, Mediacom data you to tie you over until then. By Good Day,.

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