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The Weekly Cheek
The Weekly Cheek

Episode · 1 year ago

3. MamaMia, here we go again?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode deals with everything from the suffragettes to sexual violence and the sporting field.

Read our article responding to the MamaMia piece: https://www.cheekmedia.com.au/post/the-australian-media-is-undermining-sexual-violence-survivorship

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Hello, I'm Christen Parison Otto and I'm had a focus and and we're co founders of Cheek mediac this is the week the cheek podcast. I don't think anyone has much negative stuff to say. And suffragets there they're safe, and I was actually looking in as into this to day. I thought it would go here. And you try and do this and attack me, violate my human rise, because bullshit. It is repulsive. It's repugnant. I cannot spit into this microphone. Harder about it, I think. First things first, I don't really I actually didn't know much about the waves before occided to do this. Yeah, that's pretty poor on my behalf. But I think it's a general aura around what you know about like first, second, third wave. What's kind of like? First Wave suffragettes, women got the vote. Second wave it's like it's more sex and also but BRA burning. Yeah, it's called very nice and money sexualized, yet actually charged, like we want to have our emotions voices things. So generally, yes, in more things like parent relationships, parent the workforce, they sorts of things, I feel, and I think it was also the time that I don't know if this is just a stereotype or if it's based on I'm sure it's based on some type of fact, but women were perceived to be trying to be a bit more masculine, so trying to kind of bring themselves up to match men. Yeah, I completely agree. It changed from being like we want the first elements of like the right to vote, yeah, to going to a much bigger, more plausible gender quality stay. Yes, yeah. So the reason we decided to do this podcast is because I had a grife about people on the Internet. Have Been recently that I've noticed, but I don't know if it's something that's been ongoing. have been kind of throwing stones at the second way feminists, Yep, and accusing them of not being real feminist because of the lack of intersectionality. Yep, in the wave. And I guess I supposed to kick things off. I'll just say that I don't think it's fair to hold people from the past to the same standard as we have in the future. It's like how people talk about friends and say that it's problematic, even though in the s when it was made, it was something that was kind of normal and run of the mill. So for the person, I just don't like friends. I think it's shot. I'm editing that. I actually was reading about this this morning. I agree with you. But my thing, more is I think it's okay to hold prominent individuals from that movement to account, from second wave, but I don't like the fact that the entire movement of the second wave is Shat on because there are specific leading individuals from that movement who have kind of a kind of now considered right wing or moderates. Do you mean hold them to account now? I mean it. I want them. I want specific people to be held to account now if they're saying things that are derogatory towards all that. They're saying things about things they're saying now or things that they said back then. What does it depend? What it is, sorry, things are saying now. Yeah, so my example is, I think it was Germaine Greer, when the whole Weinstein thing came out, there was a line about like well, if women open their let eggs to a film producer to get a roll, then come out a decade later winging about it when it's popular, yeah, that's not okay. And I was like, what's a fucking horrible thing to say? Ye Frankly, yeah, and I think that sort of Shit doesn't fly. But I agree with you in the sense that if people said, especially progressive people in the sixty sevent is like when they say things in that era, it's really hard for us to come out now and say, wow, it's like different time. Yeah, yeah, really hard, because it's like I don't know what I would have been like if I was born and alive then. Yeah, I have no idea. Was that the standard? I would hold myself too, and I don't think it's fair to say. I think it's completely fair if they come out now swinging the bad at fourth and third way feminist and saying like oh well, I'm not agreeing with them, the more progressive tones that have come out. I think, seriously, grow up, like yeah, you need to keep moving all your voice will die in this movement and your value. It's like the JK rowing thing, like the value of her work has been completely undercut my her current comments. Yeah, and it's not okay to say it's not okay to criticize her for maybe something that she said when she was eighteen, but it's completely fair to say will like look, I'm actually interested in inhaling your work, like consuming what you create now because of your current comments. Yes, it's just like I think we can hold people account of what they say today, especially if they were an activist in their own era, in the same field in the past. I think it's like, I don't know what I'm going to struggle with as a feminist in the future. There's probably going to be something unforesaiteable and thirty years I don't like to I agree with that. Yeah, but I just doubt I'll come out wielding a sword to stab the people that are part of the movement that I'm currently holding and and starting and working for. Exactly. And it definitely goes both ways, I think. I don't think anyone has much negative stuff to save and rejects. There they're safe and fine and honestly, this seems like so long ago that, yeah, some really hard to even like try to understand what they experience. Yes, but I think, yeah, definitely goes both ways. I think I feel disappointed in the, you know, older feminists who kind of, you know, scoff at what...

...we're doing. The yeahs as well, because I think, like you know, it's one movement and I think that as third, fourth way of feminist that we are, we should be looking back and appreciating the way that was paved for us. Yes, in, you know, arguably worse circumstances, and I only only say arguably to save myself, to be honest, like we are in much better circumstances thanks to them, as in we to white young women in Australia. Yes, but yeah, I also think that it should be going both ways, like we should all be having some respect for one another. And I when I say that I guess I'm talking about the movement as a whole, not really individuals. Agree. And I think, and for me, my biggest gripe with this sort of creatigue of like different movements kind of just lashing out of other movements is Christen is just like show some weird swallow shakes thing with her drink. I think my biggest crape is like, as a feminist movement, are we seriously attacking each other? The entire purpose is that the issue is not us. Yeah, and we are the answer. Yes, right, yeah, and instead it's the classic internalized Misogyny just, you know, swinging its last bat, coming back and going. You know what I actually think? I'm going to take women of the past instead of taking aim with the actual people that matter, fucking men. I don't understand that. Like God, it doesn't make sense to me at all. On the common goal is actually the fundamentally the same. Yeah, it's the way that people act on that common goal is different and diverse. And then, instead of kind of going where we're all instead of aligning, we're playing into the trope that all men have, you know, oppressed us with all the time, which is like women attack each other, women are for each other. Yeah, men been together over everything. Yes, men are the locker room shittheads, like, Oh my God, it's so sad to me that people who are very progressive feminists want to turn around and, you know, critique what happened fifty years ago when in reality, you're completely misfiring, you're completely losing the point, which is that's exactly what they want. That's exactly what's going to hinder progress and success, like just keep going forward. Yes, exactly, and it's just very ironic, frankly. It is. Okay, so there was a bit of a gap between the suffragettes and the second way feminist movement really took off, and I'm not saying that there were no prominent feminist between that those times, because there were. But in terms of large scale movement, yeah, you know, organizing rallies, etc. There wasn't really too much going on in that in that gap was about fifty or sixty years, I think. And then second way feminists with a women who kind of pushed for, you know, things like more fair work conditions, going actually having the option to go back to work. Yeah, as the kids, a second wave of ro versus way, I think it is. I think so. Yeah, I think it's like yeah, abortion, think, yeah, that's going further in terms of healthcare, workforce, yes, relationship equality, yes, exactly. And I think that there are definitely, because my mum is pretty typical second way feminist. She's Gen x and so there are a lot of things that we disagree on. Yeah, and obviously I think she's wrong, but she thinks I'm wrong, so that's fine. But but she's not someone who's going to stand up and be like Oh, these young feminists, they are like spitting in the face of what we hear back, you know, a few decades ago. And I think that, and this doesn't it use kind of transcends the waves. Even sometimes there are elements of feminism that you either don't agree with or part of the movement that you just kind of not really on board with, whether or whether it's because you disagree or because you just don't know. Yeah, and there are some issues that are just not your fight. Like I said this all the time, like I have my issues. I know what's my fight and some things are not my fight because I don't know about them or I'm never going to be have lived experience and I prefer to just, you know, passed on to someone else. Look to someone else for those directions. But I don't even if I disagree, I'm not, you know, setting up on a podium and shouting about, you know, the things that I disagree with about modern feminism. There are plenty of things that I disagree with, but I just think the most value you can do, thing you can do it, is shut your mouth, like Germain Gria. Yeah, if you think that, I I don't empathize, but I understand how you could come to that conclusion exactly, because there are lots of second way feminists who are like, Oh my God, we tried so hard to, you know, smack men's hands away in the workplace when they were touching our bombs or just getting on with it and ignoring them, and now we see these women coming out and making a big stink and we feel that they're taking the spot light away from what's important. I understand that you may think that, even though I disagree. I disagree. I fundamentally hate you cover, but like, if there's a difference between someone holding a thought like that and like someone like germ angria going out in the public eye and and spouting it everywhere,...

...like that's not helpful. Yeah, and I just think that having a bit of perspective, like just because it didn't happen to you, like, how do you know if you want in that position? You have no idea. Really, when it's like I completely agree and and with the specifics in kind of like what I'm really passionate about in terms of like specific issues of gender equality, it's kind of just for me, like you need, as a firminist in order to one survive and to thrive in making your arguments work out. Which hills are you willing to die on and these circumstances and honestly, general quality is, overall, one of them for me, yeah, but it's also like I am not educated in every forum of discussion and discourse. I I am not and I don't know if I will be, and it's like I it's a constant battle of like we need to do better, and I think with activists currently there's this whole stigma around like will you have to be up on everything and you have to share everything every single day? Yeah, and I get it and I respect it, but it's really, really difficult because you're kind of not committing always the requisite level of like at tension and knowledge to certain issues if you're trying to cover it all exactly. And I'd rather know a lot about a few things that I can help make actual change in it's so there's really reminds me of his like we both watch the Hillary Clinton Docu series. Honesty, yes, it's really, really, really good. When your farm looks I wouldn't I'm not going to go with Queen, but I really liked the documentary and it taught me a lot about her that I didn't know. I would have voted for her regards in two thousand and sixteen, like obviously, yeah, I don't know if there was two female candidates who I would vote for like a it's really hard because I really liked what documentary communicated, but I'm not sure how I I would like to meet her. Is My view on yeah, but something that I thought was really interesting about her, and with this is kind of it comes back to with activists, is a lot of things she said was she's a very much a realist in terms of policy, like she's an expert in US policy making, drafting executing, and she would say someone like Bernie senters would come and say Free College Education for all, and she's like, well, have you actually thought about how to actually make that happen? Yeah, like what it? What you have to do behind the scenes to get that to pass? It's much more difficult on owners than you understand. And she's like I will not come out and lie to the public and say well, I will make education free. Yeah, like there's a snippet where someone was like you have to ban fracking and she's like, I can't do that. That's actually only my powers. Yes, like you, the US cannot like an obviously, as Wen he said, they could. We want to get to a place where we can do those sorts of things. But it's like she probably in a lot of ways lost because she wasn't willing to lie. I mean she won the nomination, but she wasn't willing to lie to people and say you could do these things, because she understood that's kind of sometimes more important to dilute by ten percent, yeah, and get it through and miss a couple of things in order to later go in and secure those sort of lights and these sort of things. And I think that kind of comes back to a lot of the issues and grapes I have with the kind of current activist movements and feminist movements is that sometimes I look at these things and I read them and I think, but that's actually not doable right now. Yeah, and I agree. When you foreseeable, that's exactly and I really struggle with it because I'm like, I get so frustrated when, for example, like this is kind of off topic, I know, but when Joe Biden won the election, everyone was like, yeah, but the system is for and I'm like, we actually all know that it's gonna left when you probably identify with those beliefs, but for now this is a victory for human rights. Yeah, this is a victory for the fundamental understanding of people in one of the most powerful Western democracies, and it's actually kind of it's not not what is it disrespectful? I just struggle with it because I'm like, can we take a small win? Yeah, can we take a small win and understand that we have had the better option right now? Yeah, and that's going to lead to many better options in the future. It's a small step process. And why are you tearing down any progress with what we've still got capitalism? Yeah, and it's like we can't. We wouldn't know what to do with ourselves if we banded overnight things. And it's like it's really difficult because this is quite controversial set of opinions, I guess, but it's kind of just like in many ways, and this does link back to the FEMINIS movements and things, it's like we need to be realistic in the steps that we can take, and one that means not tearing each other down to that means being an expert and specific areas and making small changes frequently and working hard for the little things and and really being proud of those victories. We should just be blatantly proud that Kamala Harris is the VP elect. Yeah, why does it have to be war? One time she voted on a bill that included this one provision in, you know, section X, and it's like, Holy Shit, but we don't not even holding Republicans to the same stated where not and that, like the rest of the country, isn't. It's like, in many ways the left needs to unite. Yeah, because I think a lot of the issues is we're holding people to this weird spectrum of standards that mean we're fighting with each other more than we're fighting against the cause again and against the opposing side of the cause. And it's completely frustrating to me because, like, I find it's so exhausting when I read things that people post...

...and I'm like, I agree with you, but you're attacking another left wing person because they're supporting the victory of someone who is the better option. Yeah, and that's like hurtful. But I I find this is to be the same thing as US attacking the older women in older movements of feminism. It's like you are completely missing the point. Yeah, and that is we're not moving forward if we're turning our backs to yell at someone from fifty years ago. They don't matter right now. They did what they did. Let's go forward. And also, if it weren't for them, we wouldn't be able to yell at the let's just that's exactly it. It's like we needed them at that time to have that opin and do those things. And maybe they're not up to scratch now. They've run out of software updates. It's not good enough, but hey, at channel your anger. Yeah, better things. Yeah, and I think a lot of them have run out of anger. Yeah, and I'd like to think that I will never run out of anger, but maybe I will. Well, I have this one with my mother all the time, to where she kind of rings me and she says you are so highly strong. Baha, my you're so free because the world and on social media, I'll thought angry, a pretty passionate I get it. I'm proud of you, and it's I said to us, like, Mama, someone needs to be angry. A lot of people need to be angry, and I said, like, I might be exhausted like seventy percent of the time because I'm thinking so hard about all these issues, but at the end of the day, if I can make a difference, because I'm a bit in pain all the time, yeah, I would rather than just be like floating on a cloud Ling I'm a bit ignorant stupid to all the issues. Yes, and my mom was like I live in a beautiful bubble where I just enjoy myself, and I'm like that's not going to make change. Yeah, I'm like, I know you're older and that's lovely and you do listen to me whenever I complain about things, and that's what you need to do. But my mother's also one of those people that it's like the first to say you can do whatever you want. You know, I believe and you do all these things, but I don't care if you don't have kids. My mom didn't want to have kids. She members is by herself, didn't go to uni, do all these things, and probably in her ear because her mother was a very, very traditional housewife in a well sort of well off home and I think what she did with outrageous in her time. My mother was just like goodbye, everyone, I don't want to marry, I don't want to have children. She did. Was it a stance or was it just hurts her? Yeah, because some people, just like I just do my think. Well, my mom was someone who was in you know, was a teenager as child of the S and want to have shorthand ever wanted to wear a dress, always wanted to just fuck off and be gone and not do traditional things. I think that was huge. Probably, MMM, you know, obsessed with Diana, the classics, and now my mom's the person who's like yes, good, is quite short. I don't think it. I don't know if I'm now being the one that the people that I just had complained about, but it doesn'tnnoy me when that happens. Yeah, but I guess its like, but it's the same as go. It goes both ways. Like we shouldn't be, you know, Talking Shit about the second my feminist, but also they should be supporting us as well, like because, I don't know, my mom is a little bit traditional in some ways. She doesn't really talk. I don't know. She wouldn't really say the skirt thing, except to say that it's like unflattering. She's like, Oh, you know, be more flattering if you like. When I cut my hair, she was likely even to look like a boy and I'm like what she's like with the broad shoulders, you gonna look like a boy, and I'm just like I don't. I don't care, like we don't care about that something. It's hard because I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what my future, maybe child was going to say to me and I'm going to say, but I don't know what it's going to be. Yeah, so it's really hard. I don't want to critique her, but I also understand, and this is the kind of second way thing where, like what Jamin Grie says, like you're wrong, but I get where you're coming from. Like when my mom says, would you have to go out and skirt that short? She doesn't mean it looks bad and you she doesn't mean you can't, she means I just want to protect you. Yeah, exactly, from the eye of shittheads. Yeah, and I get that. But she's also the person that's like, you know, a good woman will fix a bad man. I'm like, Oh my God, but I understand that she's not living in my head and seeing and and seeing and reading and viewing and learning the same things that I am at this stage. I get it. Yeah, but it's just really hard because I especially because I have the knowledge that she was really progressive when she was my age. Yeah, and I think it is a deep fear of mine that I will accidentally fall into those sort of things as I become older. I just some part of me thinks it's kind of inevitable. Like I think that the best thing we can do is like pass on the torch and just be like, well, we because that's how I feel, and we'll probably do a podcast on engineer, on like generational differences, but that's how I am. Millennial. So I don't look as I was saying. Guys, it went here, but yeah, yeah, feel about like Jen's d like, because I know like lots who like to make fun of JEN Z ed. I've recently found out the Gen'said has been making fun of millennials on ticktock. Sorry, rude. Hold you past. You're really not a millennial, though I know you are. No, I actually think you're closer to the Gen. said. I don't understand James it. I do. I mean I am just a millennium. No, I'm not, and the reason I'm not I've been I was actually looking in this into this to day because I thought it would go here and you'd try and do this and attack me violent my human rise with this bullshit, but I'm gonna say something Nice. But anyway, one of the things I've read, and I was like a Christ isn't this is like the things that that Jen's and make fun of millennials for,...

...is things like why do millennials think that you're Harry Potter House? Is a personality trait, like why they like thirty five year olds to like I am such a half apath wow, you know, and that's so true. It is millennials was like the first people that kind of like took, like understood and work with the Internet and like really all over that sort of stuff. Yeah, for sure. But it's funny because now, like you look at the things that when I was kind of getting into face with, millennials are producing and that just shit. It's funny how those things have developed and also we've kind of held onto those like millennials will still use like jokes from memes back from a decade ago, whereas Jen zed like if you say a mean, that's like a week all. It's just like that means over. No, agree, it moves too fast now. But it's also funny because, like Jen Zad can really fuck up in that. I've seen like a lot of Genser who are like, Oh, I found a school fleetwood Maxon from like a tick tock video and like you didn't know the song. Go your own way what and it's just weird. But it's an upbringing thing because you forget how far away you are from that time was, I feel, I do feel really in the middle. Yeah, but you think about it, millennials, including forty year olds. Yeah, it goes up to where it's realistically Jen's that is kind of like anyone under twenty five at this point. Well, I think that it's I think the millennials are in two groups as like the old, the elder millennials, and then there's like yeah, regular, and you have not the elder ones, who are like he's literal and that was such a slythern thing I did and like very much, like drinking coffee. It's a personality trait, like all CACAINE buglow. Also, the older ones have a B and their bonnet because they don't want to be called millennials. Agree, it's like you are did, but it's like every generation has a grip, with the elder and younger. Yes, exactly, it's the same, like because, well, I think that gen x mostly like millennials because they pretty much like they say, it's quite similar. But no, but I think jen x and millennials are closer. Like elder millennials tried harder to be Jen X. you're probably it's quite an over like. I think one thing we can agree on is it everyone hates baby boomers. Well, I was at going to say this, because a lot of those, the people who were in the gap between the third, between the SUFFRAGETTS and the second wave, were boomers. It's really interesting, isn't it? Like, I know there were, you know, people like Hillary Clinton, is a boomer. She was so far ahead of her time exactly, but she's kind of an outlier. Yeah, most of them came later, like but again like my mom's generation. It has me thinking about I was looking into this today and thinking, like when does the fourth wave start? What's the difference during the third and the fourth way, and what's like the moment? So in my opinion, and I don't know, this isn't this isn't the fat. In my opinion, the fourth wave is more to do with like digital like it's happening online, and I think so. The third wave is like I guess stery typically known as the wave that reclaimed femininity. Yeah, after the second wave, were kind of perceived as more masculine to try and and and I don't have a problem with that. I think that there is a lot to say for women, particularly in the workplace, being like okay, well, men have this and I want it, so I'll just become more masculine and I'll call, I'll develop all of those traits that are the respected in men, which is when I think about I just think it's really sad, like it's a shame, but it's kind of like necessary evil anyway. So the third wave came along and they were like, we don't have to like have shaved heads and hairy armpits and we can wear dresses again and blah, blah, Blah's kind of like stereotype. And then I think that the when, I guess like two thousand and ten is like when instagram started. Yeah, so I think that that, I don't know, activism kind of went online, yeah, which made me think. It's a note I wrote down after watching some videos on the second way feminist, and what's struck me about them was that they were all purs like in the documentary seem perceived as very tough women. Yeah, and it actually made me think, and again, I don't I might be being the person that I've just complaining about, but it kind of made me think, like there's so many like, you know third, fourth way feminist who their activism exists on the Internet. Yes, and I'm not speaking I'm only speaking about a specific group and I know it's not fair to generalize, but there are lots of them out there who's activism does exist in their instagram stories and that's it. And I have lots of grabs about that that I'm not going to go into because not relevant today. But I just thought like here all of these women, he's second way of women like you know, Jane fonder types, and a lot of them were celebrities are, I would admit, talking about you know, how much they fought against, like a lot of black women, all of the like, trying to straddle like the civil rights movement with the feminist movement, because both movements wanted their full attention and they felt like they were straddling it and they didn't fit into either fully. Yeah, and want to shoot both and like pushing in the work place. There was a woman there who said...

...she was at college and in the US and professors wouldn't call on her, they wouldn't even answer questions because she's a woman. And the they are the women who like really kind of were groundbreaking and made change. And then I thought about the people who are instagram activists who are shitting on those second way feminists, and I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? Like these are very tough women who have like literally done stuff, and then there's a whole group and community of instagram feminist instagram activists who are not doing anything except for bragging about the virgin terms that they know. Yeah, it's just about you signaling, and it just really bothers me because I'm like, you're it's so ironic, first of all, but it's like how day, like like we, as feminist, who are benefiting from all of that past. Yeah, should be the first people to acknowledge the struggle that they went through. We should not be the first people to criticize them, and that's not to say that we are a lot of criticize them, ever, but we have to, in my opinion, recognize that and recognize that we wouldn't be anywhere without them. Makes me angry. Yeah, it's like I constantly Oh, you get it, you bought a book, you're on the first after and you want post about it. Look at I have to whay. I'm skylighting my favorite phrase. I'm and another thing I noticed about second way feminist. One of the notes I've just written Jane fonder. Love Her, what a queen. So I've written second way feminist doing what their mum's couldn't inspired them too. So there was quite a theme of this in the interviews that I watched. A lot of the women were like, Oh, like, I got where I am because of my mom, and my mom was like you can be anything, you can do anything. And I think, well, definitely, like our generation grew up being told we can do every anything we want, and then we have to find out ourselves that we can't. But I think back then the mums of the second way feminist, the progressive ones, were saying, like it's going to be really hard, but I believe that you can like smash the Glass Celia, yes, exactly. So I think that that was one thing that came up. And then the ones who didn't find who weren't like in quotes inspired by their mums were doing it because we're doing it because their mom's couldn't. Yeah, because it's like well, my mom couldn't do this. She worked hard for us and she had to work in the home because she didn't have any other options. So, you know, because of her sacrifice, I'm going to do blah. I think it's like the classic with like we've got a lot of momentum and there's in so many changes in a relatively short historical period of time, and so that's when you see women now in who are, know, a decade or two older than us, who like, oh, but we're so close, like yeah, we should appreciate the rights that we've got and all these things in bubble. But and it's like no, no, you don't understand, you don't understand that. Like at my friend's current workplace, she has one coordinated earning thirtyzero dollars a year less. Yeah, she's a female and she doesn't know. Yeah, she doesn't know, and it's like you actually forget those things exist and people actually always and constantly undermine the fact that the wage gap still exists and they're still is like sexual assault. I think sexual violence generally is one of the most prominent factors still existent in our current movement and what we're trying to fight against. It's like to fight and claim that there is still the existence of this inequality through like the workplace and things, but to also like move on to especially like domestic violence, and it's more just like a lot of especially because those things are quite private and they usually within the home. It becomes a really hard conversation because it's hard to identify how rampant it is, and statistics tell us how ramped it is, but because people don't see it. Yeah, they kind of refused to alum that, to acknowledge it of exists in many ways, and I think that a lot of time it's like, especially for like my mom's generation and home im generations, like well, you know, somethings are private and you know between and it's hard. It's also hard because, like, I watch a lot of for example, like my mother. In a way I'm like, you're so progressive, because she said, I I'm not being treated up by my husband and I am going to get a fucking duce and I don't care whatever I'm this small town is going to say about me, but I would rather be poor yeah, and alone with my children and with this person. Yeah, and like I really respect that. Yeah, it's hard because then in other ways she's failing and not recognizing that some things do exist in Blah Blah Blah and instead and the way to fight back against sexual vinces not to say put on a longer skirt. Yeah, there's all these issues surrounding recognition of what the actual core crux of the problem is when these things and like defeating them isn't by ignoring them, will pretending to there or saying what doesn't even exist these days. Like, yes, I think there's this whole issue with approach and there's a whole ishie of communication between older and younger generations. Just kind of makes sense exactly with what you said. Like it used to be was because of my mom. Yeah, but now it's got, I think, of...

...failing, and I'm just not my mother. My mother's very good, but I think we've got a failing of people a little bit older than us in saying, instead of saying, oh, it comes so fast, we should just we could just take a breath. It's like keep the momentum going. Yes, I think the there's like with the me to movement which is immerged in what the last fight? I think it's five years yeah, I think so. I think there's like three core events that triggered that. MM, the TMZ Hollywood tape of trump. Yeah, it's graded by the Pussy yeah, Christine Blasi for testifying against Brett Havna and the Third Weinstein. Yes, that that whole breaking the New York Times breaking that, and I think those three things the perfect momentum to kind of like re light the fire and a sense for sure, because it was and that's when I think the digital thing really comes into play. Yes, not saying that when the fourth wave starts. Think it's a bit earlier than that. But I think that the motion, because that's the same sort of time as when I'm the Brock Turner rapecase occurred, that Chanel Miller on Stanford campus, and there was also another movement I remember. I can't remember what school was, but we're a girl, I think, carried her mattress around, Oh yeah, her campus until her rapist was expelled from the university. Yeah, and they sort of movements were around that sort of you know, two thousand and twelve, two thousand and sixteen period, and I think that was a huge, huge propellant for them. Yeah, I'M gonna again. I think for sure the medium really took hold of those things, which was helpful. Yes, thank you. Thank you, guys. You fucking failed in many another way. Yeah, I think you're right. And what you're saying about how yeah, there are some people from, you know, previous generations who will say like, you know, but we've got a lot, so you can't we just be thankful, because I wonder if maybe they see it as threatening what they did. Why do you think? I just that just popped into my head. Sorry. So I think that one of the things that the second way feminist most struggle with blanket is breaking down the binary, because they don't because they have a struggle with themininity exactly. So they're kind of like, well, we struggled so hard for Blah and they grew up with gay rise. Yes, but it's just kind of like a step, you know, the next step then just not quite grabbing it because they I I guess it's time to say because you don't want to try. And Yeah, I don't want to. Don't want to be like this is what they think. You don't even want to give it at time, I know, but it's implet it's something I wonder, like, where does this come from? Exactly? I think it probably they probably see it as a threat to their well right, says women. Yeah, I got but that they've worked for. I it's really unfortunate, it is, because it does make you go just fucking shut up, yeah, just be quiet, like I'm sorry, but it's this thing where it's like the fundamental goals of feminism, ah, you have the right to choose, and those things I struggle with, and I do vocal as I actually used to work with a guy who said to me, before I expose myself, that's how day scandal, that he was specifically looking for a woman who didn't have any like hopes and dreams that were related to a career, because he just wanted to be the working person and he wanted to get a job where he would be moving frequently and traveling in quotes. Needed a woman who was going to just be happy staying at home with the kids and looking after things and making sure the dinner was on the table whenever he deemed to come home. And that made me really angry because if I said that about a man, well, I wouldn't like that either. Yeah, but it would be less acceptable, yeah, for mens that to what other man they'd be like Al. But these days, you know what I mean, like if I said that, most people like, yeah, you know what I mean. HMM. Well, it I think it, because when he said it, like it bothered me and then I was kind of like, well, I guess like people want what they want, I suppose, like I was trying to be really fair, but then I found out that he actually now has a fielceing and I was like, I got angry again because I just felt like he was looking, like he didn't say anything about intelligence, but I just felt like he was kind of implying with the language that he was using, I'm looking for someone who will not be my intellectual equal. And then to me that just said you're looking for someone who will you can golow you exactly, will follow everything you say, will go with you wherever, will make your favorite dinar, and it's abusive. Yes, and that's the issue. Is like is actually quite a fine line, because there are traditional relationships that are loving and carrying at all these things, but I just don't see that thing the majority as what it comes back to, and I want you to take the hint time giving you to roll into the next topic that I want to roll into, which is the certain responsibilities women in prominent positions have yes to. And again we're talking about this other day with the mom and me article that we talked about previously, for the whole way essentially. But yeah, it's hard to hold women to our higher standard. We do.

We hold women to a higher standard in looking out for women and we hold men to so, for example, like ours. She this week was like Mumma mere is probably the leading as women's media company in Australia and their purpose is to make the well the better place for women and girls. And yet a lot of their content, and one article in particular that we consumed last week is just woeful. Is, I actually atrocious. Personally, I think, and my thought is like how how can we possibly accept this standard and why are women like my got incredible writing, incredible when it reached by third made feminist, by the way, exactly. And it's like I'm holding you to our higher standard than I am from writers for Fox sports in the Daily Mail, because you have a responsibility to care for the interests of women and to promote material which serves our best interests. Yes, this next segment discusses alleged sexual assault and made not be appropriate nor suitable for some listeners. And the article was essentially the title of the article itself. Was Jared Hay and Jack De Bell and and the other sports stars who never learned how to have sex. And the thing for me is, I said it's a Christen earlier, like this made me fucking furious because, like the people that were sharing it to their instagram, like Laura Byrne, who most people, if you're listening to this, would know, was the winner of the Bachelor in the season with Maddie J and she's one of my favorite people. I fought on Instagram, which he's a really smart business women. She Wan was one of the she runs one of the most ex Aus will podcast in the country, life on cut. She's incredibly prominent with over a quarter of a million instagram followers, and she was like, Oh, read this, like fantastic, and I just thought I was absolutely gobsmacked. Like foremost, my issue with this article there's it's two parts, I mean as many parts. First of all, that headline is communicating that the burden is once again placed on others, probably women, to teach men how not to rape. Yeah, right, and correlating it with sex education, yeah, in school, correlating the idea that all will these offenses that are in like court trials and New South Wales, Hmm, could have been solved if, you know, mum and dad sat down for a better birds in the bees talk at, you know, the age of thirteen. And this is slightly of topic, but I'll be very brief that I think it the onus is being put more on teachers. Yeah, schools for that, which, by the way, teaching predominantly women. Every single thing that happens in society, people go back and blame teachers. Yeah, they're like, why didn't they learn this at school? No funding, exactly, they don't have the ability to. If University stand up for teaching? Low, exactly. So and again, like women, women are all the teachers. The male teachers are predominantly at the top, they're the principles. Yeah, and then the women and the one vitally in the yeah, this is a teacher. Wow, it's not. It's so. It's constantly. What I think about is when we think about like gender quality, especially in the workforce as well. Again off topic. When we think about women in male roles, like women in like traditional mirrors, like a female engineer, right, it's like, oh, weird, just fitting with the boys. When we think about a male hairdresser or a male teacher or a male nurse, it is poly to stal. Yeah, they're like a fun novelty, the considered better at the job. Yeah, it's like even male makeup artist taking over Youtube. But when you think about the demographic of like James Child and people like it's crazy to me that in every aspect of our lives on a man does something that's a novelty, it's like, Oh my God, the best, and when a woman kind of tries to put her way in, it's really gets me. and Women's roles, I considered, should be less paid, like childcare. Yeah, like things like that. It's like, oh, it's care as work, exactly women's work. Yeah, it goes back to this article and, as we said earlier, if you want to talk about the thing that bothered you about the content of the piece, I would love to Hannah thing, but that's okay. That's passing off there. So the thing that bothered me about the content and I'm absolutely sweating. Yeah, we have sound very hot. So well, also very hot is that, throughout the entire article, the assumption, the assumption that the article was based on, was that these football players were telling the truth when they said that they didn't assault these women. So there was one example where one of them sent a text his mom and just said, oh, mom, it was nothing weird, it was just normal sex. And the author, the journalists, the journalists response was like, oh, how could you think that was normal when she was bleeding? And that means that she thinks that he was being honest when he said to his mom, I didn't rape that woman when, like, first of all, she made very like made lots of care to say allegedly, throughout the whole article...

...like all, this is an alleged assault. Tryer, which I get a journalism ethics Blah Blah. It is an allegation, but you're not treating it as one because you are assuming and giving him the benefit of thinking that he truly thought that it was an enjoyable time. You're not saying, allegedly, he believed this text and he said it to his mom. You're saying, allegedly, he's being convicted of this charge. Allegedly this happened. Yet, but when it comes to like the context surrounding the evidence, in the facts, you're like, he just thought, I was only told. Janis like, oh, he just thought was normal, as if, like some man would, you know, rape woman and call his mom and be like Oh, hello mom to yeah, she's shamed. No, like a hundred times all it's I'm not going to happen. Its not going to happen, and I just like giving them the benefit of the debt. I know it's on my drand, but giving them the benefit of the doubt, which, by the way, if you take a look at the news, we do constantly for football players or sports stars, as was said in the headline, but mostly footy players it. They're given the benefit of the doubt again and and again and again and again and again, and it's just assumed that he truly thought it was normal. Yeah, and and apparently that's the problem. And why is it that the woman is always framed as having like Oh, this is just a case of bias remorse exactly. It's always fraind was that no one actually talks about that. The context behind her text. She left and she texted someone hell help. I can't get past this because for me the headline conveys so much. But mostly what it conveys is like if, and I think most women are victims of sexual assault, whether they're aware of it or not. I think some people don't, some women don't know how to identify what what's happened to them is sexual assault and sexual violence. But like, I think we can easily say we've both experienced a sexual assault in our time against ourselves. And to read that, I am not particularly like any experience of hat has been particularly violent, but even to read that headline, I think that is absolutely traumatizing for a victim of rape. Yeah, that is disgusting. To read an article, read, button written and also made a podcast on the specific article. Day they level down, they double down it, like multiple women who are at the helm of this company. Right, for them to cook for one, them to leg it back to pawn culture and then to talk about how it's like a help, it's an education and health issue, like it's a fucking missed pe class. Right, and they said that porn clague is because our young, like men of this generation, watch so much pawn right to and also did like did with the first rapist millennials, because we should be laughing, but it's just ridiculous to me. It's comical in how ridiculous it is. I can't get past it because the thing is, and what struck me as just the worst possible element of this is it. All the comments were like yes, girl preached, yeah, there we asked. I was just like I can't. Yeah, why is no one seeing the issue? And they're like I thank you for putting it into words, all my feelings, and I'm like, as a victim, and most women are victims of something of this nature, to read an article what just saying, like, Oh my God, these boys need help. Yeah, it's just embarrassing, it is repulsive, it's from pugnant. I cannot spit into this microphone. Harder about it. It honestly has left me feeling like I need a shower the entire week because I don't understand why women read that. I'm like, Oh my brilliant, what a piece. No one reads my face hasn't says it's truly outrageous. It is. And the thing is I'm sitting here thinking, what am I missing? Yeah, I know. That's why why do I feel like I'm in the wrong? I don't want what the fuck is this? Yeah, I felt so isolated in it because it Hannah just sent me the headline, like just the just the headline, with basically no context, and you were like what is this headline? Something like that, and I was like what? And it grew like a best drink heard inside of us the whole week, because I saw it first, saw and I thought I don't like that. Yeah, and then, you know, I sat with it for about an hour and then I read the article. Yeah, and then I was like, Oh my God, this is raging fire. Just sort of a lit it, like I was ablaze by the end of the day, like and then I was like we have to do something or say something, and then we just kept growing to the point when I was like I have to talk about this, like I just I can't get over it, because I don't honestly, I'm not a I'm not a mum and me a fan. You were embarrassing for them, but it's really tough because I think and what I my promise. I'm like, are you aiming at the second wave? MMM, like is your content like aiming it like our mum's and I think that's what I feel like. That's what it started as. But they have lots of young employees. Yeah, and a lot of the rudders are our age. Yeah. My issue is, like it's the conversation they're trying to provoke that like we should be looking at Aart to our sons and think, like what do they need to stop this from happening? And I do in some capacity. Think okay, yes, if sex education on female pleasure, HM, and how...

...we should treat people in the bedroom and consistently ask for consent and Blah, blah, blah, Bah Blah. That's important. There's are important things. But why did the headline MMM, frame itself that way? Why couldn't we have said why couldn't they? I'm not going to take any part of the way of that. Why couldn't they have said allegations against sports DOS and means we need to take, make protest or, you know, really look at the education system m surrounding consent, yeah, or you know, like the legality surrounding mistake of fact in Australia or something like. Why couldn't have been more directed, HMM, and not have really shifted blame yeah, and it's really shifting from a sports star who, you know, sports in Sport Star. Football in general is a violent sport. Yeah, and it's all about, you know, sweat and rob them up against each other and, you know, cancussions and violence and all these things. But why are we once again put his men on a pedestal for giving them and subjecting to them to this like questions of like, Oh, do you not a finger? Like do you know how? Like do you know what believing means? Like that's bullshit. No one's ever seen blood and been like, Oh, what's these? What they fuck? Like? Yeah, it's actually ridiculous, especially for young women who are probably going out and having sex with different people, to go, Oh, you know, I'm just sure that when he texted, you know, Karen, his mom, you know, Oh, I think it was normal sex, like we why is that the piece of evidence that completely constructs the argument of that entire article? Exactly? Why is that the basis for like a sex education problem in Australia and not the actual evidence that it's a fucking rape trial? It's because it it is and we talked about this earlier off the podcast, but it is an important topy but it's not the time nor place. Yeah, and it's not. It's not the way to execute it. and they had wanted disgrace. And it's not related. Yeah, rape is not about sex. is about power and violence and it is a crime. It is not about sex. No, like the correlation between the two is they're not synonymous us, they're not the same, because sex is consent. Yes, sex and consent same. Let mean not really. I can concern to having a lollipop, but I get what I'm saying. Yeah, rape is rape. You cannot say like old you. I fuck, I just cannot get get my head around this, because it's not sex. What they had wasn't sex. No, again, allegation, HMM, but still, yeah, my God, and do better. I just don't understand. No, I'd neither do I. I and like I just and I know you've been speaking like for the last week about, like you know, this is doing so much damage to victims of sexual violence or assault, and I don't think I've actually fully thought about until just now when you were talking like that. They're the woman who is like the alleged victim. Has To read that headline. Yeah, and like people who like imagine like your friend coming to you and say I was assaulted last night and be like Oh, unfortunately, that guy didn't know how to have sex. Yeah, like what when I fuck? Imagine me sitting down with you and being like Christian. When he saw the blood coming out of your vagina, do you think that he was like, Oh my God, I missed a health class in your nine, like, what the fuck? Yeah, sorry, I've got to actually ridiculous about this, but it's just so sad to me that, like the expectations for what men are capable of thinking, feeling and understanding is so much lower. M If a man, if a woman, raped a man in this sort of context, their career would be destroyed forever. It wouldn't be like when are they getting back on the field, one where they be allowed to play again. Yeah, and it all so wouldn't be a question of whether they knew what they were doing, because we expect a certain level of maturity, comprehension and smarts and and just general knowledge from women in a way that we don't expect the same thing from men, especially football players, because we want to justify their actions so that they can continue being prominent people. Exactly what he can answer entertained by them. No, but why is it that like a won't? Like I've also seen lately, and I don't really know what my position is on these sort of things, but like like influences who have been getting sort of cancer in the media for like tweets. They maybe when they were like twelve, and so i's got instagram and twitter and like two thousand and eight, and they were, you know, its like bitches and slats and hors was like words that they used in their tweets. Yeah, and people like cancels, and it's like why did Jack De Bell and allegedly rape a woman in with a CO accused? MMM, and they're saying, Oh, you must have missed something. And even in that mom and me article it said, Oh, he was really concerned about his career being ended. Yeah, in my opinion, and this is just my opinion, but as a cofounder of aim he company, in my opinion it is not helpful to give even like a second of airtime to his concern. Yeah, like, I don't give a shit about his concern about his career. If you have a concerned about your career, I don't commit a crime. Kay, Oh my God, it's not that hard, then just the fact that it was even mentioned is just so disgraceful, particularly because we know that he's going to be fine. Yeah, like, even if he is, like, you know, found guilty, he's going to be fine, because the history has shown us that. Yeah, and what we're communicating to victims consistently from a women's media company, no less is that. Actually, it's not about you. Yeah, this survivorship that you've managed, like this position that you're in. It's actually not about you. Were actually...

...going to look at why the men ended up this way and like how we can get him back on track. Yes, it's not about healing your trauma. It's not about looking at you and saying, like, how can we support this person through this time? It's about saying, well, you know, he was on TV and on grass running around touching other men, so how do we get him back there as fast as possible? Exactly. That's fucking disturbing and that's everyone's agenda and I think that, like you did touch on earlier, but I don't love that we're holding a women's media company to high standard than Fox News Daily Mail. I don't like that. Unfortunately, the reality is that we've come to expect this stuff from Fox News and Daily Mail and again, I don't like to do this, but I just think it. I think that they should be held to a high standard because they put themselves in that position of being for women, yeah, by women, and I also think that I didn't article like that from a women's media company does more damage because of the audience and the readership. Yeah, absolutely, the victim, the victim's friends and family, women who know have been sexually solved, are the ones victims, the ones who are going to read that headline. Yes, because, and they we know, because it went absolutely viral. Women are more like her to be victims of sexual violence. So when these women read this article, and that's the thing, especially when you go to the comments and you have literal celebrities saying like Yeahs, yeah, Hanky Panklock, hemp club, it's like, do you know what that's communicating? And once again you are fucking affirming, validating and reiterating that the assault, that the sole purpose is to support the men. Back to his position by saying that an issue is clearly happened in his life and he's missed the class, he's missed the memo. Yeah, and it's like there's actually no memo about rape. MMM, you are saying my pleasure is about your pain and the lack of aautnomy that you have over your own body right now, exactly, and that's just disgusting. There's no mistake about it. Will do we say that when men of or people are found to be embezzling? Yeah, Oh, there was no class about not in beazling. Yeah, cool, we don't even learn about taxes. There's no class apant in baziling. So we'll wink in the description of the podcast, the article and posts that we made about this topic. Yes, for your pleasure. You're reading pleasure. I don't not a good enough for reason to use word pleasure. After always, for your consumption. Yes, please share. If you found us just totally a relatable at work. Come back next Wednesday for a new episode. Until then, head to cheek. MEDIACOM did a you to tie you over until then. By Good Day.

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