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The Weekly Cheek
The Weekly Cheek

Episode · 9 months ago

61. Does hookup culture perpetuate rape culture?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we discuss the relationship between hookup culture and rape culture, and whether we believe one influences, or causes, the other.

Find us online at cheekmedia.com.au and on socials @cheekmediaco

Hello, I'm Christ and Parison Otto and I'm hard of focus and where co founders of Cheek mediac this is the weekly Cheek podcast. In I think sex in the city ways comes back to. I think that it is undermining the ability of women to act, think and M and do things independently. Right. Well, you didn't even recommend it to me. I was like, I'm going to watch it and you were like, Oh, I'm gonna Watch it. Before we start this podcast, I would like to acknowledge that we are recording on stolen lands of the Yaga and terable people here in me engine where recording this the week of invasion day, and I think that it is important to make sure that your activism and your education, if you are a white Australian, is happening all times of year, not just around significant events for first nations people. So I would recommend that you look into the early resentment from the heart, if you haven't already. We mentioned a quite a bit on the podcast most weeks and if you don't know what it is, it is about the importance of an Intri and voice into the Constitution for first nations people and the idea of putting it into the constitution instead of just legislating it is that it can't be removed and there have been lots of instances where progressive legislation has been passed through parliament but then it has been reversed by conservative governments laid it down the track. So it is really important that when we make progress that it is said in stone and cannot be reversed or changed or removed. Welcome back to the weekly check podcasts, alcome podcast. Why did I say that? Today we're going to be talking about the relationship between hookup culture and rape culture and the question of does Hook up culture perpetuate rape culture? So we obviously will be talking a bit about sexual assault and rape. We won't be talking about any details, but if this is a topic you don't want to listen to, get this episode and come back next week. So so I think so. I think I would be pretty confident in saying that there is, if not a rise in hookup culture with our generations, then there's a rise of it being talked about and more open and less and more accepted instead of being behind closed doors. And there is a lot of rhetoric about the relationship between the two. Is Insinuating or just plainly stating that hookup culture perpetuates rape culture, makes it worse and stuff. I think that the main argument for this is that is the insinuation that went if you're, you know, having casual sex and if you're hooking up with people you don't really know, then consent is not being talked about or secured, and I think that maybe perhaps that comes from the fact that or the idea that you can't communicate very well with someone who don't know or someone that you're casually hooking up with. I think that the assumption probably comes from the fact that a lot of people that do engage in this have had bad experiences. Yeah, like because I think it's hard, because, I mean, I know it's shocking about I think a lot of people would say that consent is harder to achieve in environments. But like because I think that rape culture and Hook up culture like we need to like determine what what we mean by those things as well. Like Hook up culture, I think we see particular. I mean I think it's been very popular or part of our culture for like almost a decade now at least. Would you say? Yeah, I mean like normalized having very like casual relationships, dating multiple people. Like I mean I think sex in the citys fick always comes back to it. I've never seen it. Carry Sam. What is that one of these? I think that.

I think that sex in the city and that like moment in time was when a women started to claim their set own sexuality and started to be more comfortable asking for what they wanted and like going after what they wanted and if that was kind of sex and they would just do that. Yeah, not that there's was any less critique, I don't think. No, that's the thing. I think that what it was like a I think sex in the city offered the start of the normalization period, basically. I mean, and I don't know, I wasn't really alive when that came out. When did it come out? The nine? Yeah, I mean I watched it when I was in my like early twenties, lateeen. So I did. I missed the moment, but I think you were there back. Yeah, I meaned by twenty years. It's some moment. That's like, so you got to a new story three hours too late. Yeah, we're twenty years. That's the moment. On account of not being unl you like it, because that's shocking to me. Yeah, it's because it's like I watched it at a certain point in my life and it was really important in that yeah, moment. Like now, when I go back and rewatched, I'm like that and my not. This is not the same thing. But I understand why you can't watch it. But I've been watching euphoria lately, which I think a lot of people been watching. Do you know the latest episode of Euphoria? I think not. This week's last week's episode two of the new season had more reactions and engagement online the final episode of game of thrones. Really. Yes, wow, that's insane. You. Fury is Jen's Ed's equivalent of sex in the city, not comparing the towel. It's way more fuck off violent, like it's not fun. It's put one of the least fun enjoyable shows I've ever seen. Yeah, I couldn't handle it. So it's I don't know what I'm talking about. So, but I think it's what I what I I've been recommending it to a lot of people. I recommend it to you and then you tried to watch. You were like no, cat and do Queen, when you don't even recommend it to me. I was like, I'm gonna Watch it, and you were like, Oh, I'm gonna Watch it, I don't care about the Lorn I can. I think you should persevere. Actually, a really yeah, because I didn't say that. Well, I know I don't, because whenever I recommend something to someone and they don't like it, I get very offended, and this is happened on multiple occasions with us. Ravn't like you should try this. If you're like this, fuck the worst, and that's ever. Well, I was going to bring it up on the PODCAST, but I can't believe you still haven't watched the good fight. I know I tried to strive, try to log into your sister's so you stand the past. I didn't work. Has Changed a few times because your TV is linked to Melbourne, I know. So every time I log in it's like so much from Melbourne's tried to log it and I'm like it's just me. Sorry, Frey, sorry, feel like you're s with nothing in return. Anyway, when we've put my Disney class. Okay, she's got it. Yeah, that's great. Great. Anyway, back to it, my point being I think there's a lot of shows like we got sex, we've got you for it. And obviously these shows dive like a lot of dark subject matter, but I think one of the things that they do is normalize the sexual experiences that we have in high school. And I'm not saying that what you FIA represents is normal high school experience. If you watch it, you'll understand exactly what I mean. And if you're looking for the extreme stuff and if you're looking for a new TV shown you don't like things that like our raided, don't watch. You for it. I don't recommend it, but I think that what they're doing is for like my sister watches it euphoria, which I think is wrong because she's sixteen, but I think in my mind she's eight. So I'm like no, dude, not for you. And I think when I know that that Jen's is watching these shows, I'm like well, as much as they are thirty year olds playing classical students in the hottest people I've ever seen, I do think that some of the conversations that are brought up and some of the like the inclusivity, I think there's different aspects of it where I'm like that is bringing new ethical standards in a way and having conversations about the issues. We pok up culture, but also, like, I think, the I think the deep rooted issues with Hook up culture are elements of rape culture,...

...but I think it's because I don't think that. I mean my fundamental answer is I don't think this hookup culture perpetuates rape culture, but I think that the worst, most toxic parts of culture m all right culture, because I think the point of rape culture and the definition of how we look at it is it's a culture, or like a social conscience, where women or victims of sexual violence the OS has put on them to put themselves out of harm's way. And it's about how and if and when we report, it's about how it's police, it's about the entire system that normalizes sexual violence. Right. So I think that we're living in that. So fundamentally they are connected, but I don't think that hookup culture perpetuates rape culture, but I think that there's elements that coexist. I think that this is just popped into my head, is not premeditated. I think that women who participate in hookup culture are more likely to be victim blamed for their own assault. Definitely, and that is, in my mind where the link ends, because I also I just want to mention and I don't I don't know. I don't know who it was. I'm really sorry. I was scrolling through instagram and this video came up and it was two people talking about the relationship between hookup culture and right culture and saying that, arguing that Hook up culture does feed into rape culture. And the core of the argument was that sex can't be causual because consent isn't causual, implying that casual sex is non consensual. And I don't, I see, I watch this video. I don't think that it implied that. I think that's exactly what it implied that. So can you, sorry, repeat what you just said? The implication. So they said that cats, that sex cannot be causual because can see, because consent is not casual. But yes, see, and you what did you take from it? I took from it that it implies that casual sex cannot be consensual. No, see, I just think that what I took from it was that this person is saying that for them, but they weren't talking about it personally. But I think, I think their opinion comes from personal experience right, and they might be putting it on too people, and I think that's unfair because I think that I know that I don't know how well I do with having causual sex with multiple people, because I'm everly sensitive, an emotional even though on the outside I'm like a fucking like no one. I like. That what I just want people like me. I love that. I'm one the biggest extrovert to hate being emotional vulnerable with people, but three am also the most emotional and insensitive person ever, like any if someone's like I think you should move the full stop in the sentence, I'm like, Oh God, I hope don't go over. Please love me anyway. Back to it, I think that for a lot of people sex isn't casual, but I don't think that and I don't and I don't think consent is casual either. I think consent is important right. So I think that that conversation can't be casual, has to be absolute right and has to be active. But I don't think that the assumption they were making was that cancer casual sex therefore cannot be consensual. I think they're what they were saying is neither of the acts of consent or sex. In my mind, in their mind are casual. So it's not that it's not consensual, but this like cultural norm of it being like a whatever thing. It can't be because they're both important acts. But I don't think they were saying it's not possible either way, I still think it's wrong. In conrect, I don't agree with it because I think that that's putting too much of your own like I know people that can, with a gray to ease, have sex and just be like whatever, one...

...and done. Happy with that, moving I'll see you later. fucking impressive Shit Right. But I I also think that you have to have very clear boundaries to succeed in that environment. Yeah, but I think that like you can so easily have casual sex that's consensual, like it's it is for something. I'm not saying like Oh, for everybody it's easy to have a consent conversation, but I can see where the idea that it's it's tough can come from, because I think that's perpetuating the patriarchy. I mean I think it's, put me dramatic, I think that it is undermining the ability of women to act, think and hmm and do things independently. Right and but here's the issue. I think that maybe what it's referencing, and this is the experience of a lot of people who engage took up culture, is it's at a time maybe in and this is very circumstantial. I'm not arguing for this this perspective, but I can. I'm just offering what I think maybe it's entrenched in. Is like a lot of people who are engaging in this sort of casual hookup culture do it in maybe a university environment or like they're going out to bars, they're living in is like they're sorry, they're going out to bars, they might be getting drunk and might be at house parties and all these sorts of things. And I can imagine it being end of high school, earlier uni, very young, potentially naive and again, all circumstantial, and it's with a lot of drinking that's involved, maybe drugs, and this is where the line start to blur, and this is where casual is really hard, because you might be having casual sex but an environment where you're not necessarily safe. But I think that's a whole different thing. It is because people, I think young people, I mean I think we all have a tendency to like center ourselves and like only think about things in the way that we've experienced them. But, like, Hook up culture is not about like getting full down drunk at the bar and then going home with someone who's also just as drunk or less or more drunk than you. Like. It's not that's not the only way to his pain. Hookup culture like people, like, plenty of people are having sober, casual sex of like of all ages and genders and, you know, different combinations of thing. Absolutely, but I do think a lot of people have had that experience and then I think so too. But I don't think that is a I don't think I'll negative experience as a result of hookup culture. No, no, absolutely, but I think that I and I get not arguing, I am not trying to play devil's advocate for you. I fucking hate those words. I shouldn't have be on our podcast and I'm not trying to argue for this video or whatever, but I just think that maybe the perception is is that those are the circumstances where people are more prone or in an unsafe position, because it becomes more unsafe in those environments and it becomes not like, what's the word I guess like more questions around it. Yeah, and I don't think that's a great argument and I don't think that that's the way that took up culture should be. I think that if we look at the way, like, the fundamentals of what Hook up culture is and how it succeeds and it's best qualities, it's that it's independent people who have agency, who have clear boundaries, going into situations and saying, Hey, this is what I'm looking for. It's very transactional and it's very clear and level headed and but the thing more complex and that is a lot more circumstantial than that, and everyone's different. So it is a really hard to be complex. No, but I think that these things often are, because I think that I do think that the majority of people who engage in it frequently do find it more complex than they imagine it to be. HMM, maybe, I think, maybe not, like from your perspective, because you do have very clear boundaries. Yeah, I just think I just think it's problematic to talk about because I just think that this line of talking, I'm not saying this is what you're doing, but I think that this line of like thinking removes agency from women, because I think it's we're always talking about, oh, it's always more complicated...

...for the woman. Yeah, because I assumes we're all emotional beings that can't like make a decision without getting totally in like a kind of sets that being in love. And that's my problem with absolutely and I think that that's totally fucked. Like, I agree with you. I think that's the biggest floor of this argument. Is it taking away? Yes, sorry, like if we, if we would, you know, having tole conversation, then one of us like, well, this whole time I've been talking about like gay couples between two men. I think the the reaction would be so different. But we wouldn't be talking about it because I'm not a gay man. Yeah, that's true. But if, if we're talking about hookup culture generally, haven't we agree that we're not talking about it from our own perspectives? True, or like the importance of not only thinking about this from your own perspective. I think when you make broad, sweeping statements, they can't be influenced by your own feelings on all like how you would be in that circumstances. But I think that's the basis of like misunderstanding. One enough, but aren't we always talking for own perspective, because we can never be unbiased. We are, but I guess I'm saying like not everyone has the same experiences as you, because I'll, I'll, this is my hot take that I've been saving. I think that hookup culture, like if we were to achieve the pinnacle of Hookup Culture, where, like sex did, doesn't mean anything if you don't want it to mean anything. Yeah, both parties, consensual, all of that, then I think that that is the antidote to rape culture because, and I think I agree with you, but I want to hear why, because I think what perpetuates rape culture is not hookup culture, but purity culture and the fact that and like lack of sex education and not teaching people when they're young about boundaries and making sure that women know that they have the agency to say no, making sure that men know that, like, rape is not allowed. I think that is how we were like, I guess, Abolish Rape Culture, yes, and I think that, but I think I completely read what you just said and I think that's what it comes back to. When I said earlier, like the worst parts of hookup culture are rape culture, because I think that if if hookup culture existed the way that we want it to, in that high quality, like if sex doesn't mean anything to you and that's how you want it, and you do it on your own terms, your own way, in the very healthy managed way, with another person, like all people, who also doesn't agree that it also doesn't mean yeah to them. Yeah, then it is the end to doote. But it's because you've got these these toxic aspects. It's like like underneath, like I feel like it's just like in my mind it's just like this like dark under layer. Yeah, of problems, right, and those are rape culture, infiltrating, because it it poisoned the water hole, like, do you know what I mean? Like it's rope culture is everywhere. So the thing is, like there are rapists who participating hook up culture. So yes, and aren't that reason? And that is the intersection, don't you think? It's the rapist world? Sorry, who say agains Hook that they only have a link because there are rapists who participate in hookup culture. Yes, that is literally the link. It's not about the actions really, unless it's the rapist actions. Is Getting there too complicated, I think. But like if there were no rapist, we could all have hookup, we could all enjoy hook up culture as a society. Yeah, but I'm not everyone can enjoy hook up culture. I mean if we want, I mean generally like yeah, soiety can like accept it as something. That's what it's not only rapist a of the problem, I think the other people that are the problems. Yes, true, but the other people that the problem with, the people that don't the purity, the people who are like of the view of purity culture. HMM, the they're inflicting their opinion. Yeah, I think that it's like the fact that, as a social group, those...

...people accept rape culture. And I'm not saying people who are of the view of purity are rapist. That's not what that means. What I mean is the people that shame women for their sexual acts and victim blame and try to make wimmen in charge of their own protection against sexual violence and the barriers to reporting. I think that ven diagram is a circle. I think US shaming women, US doing all these things and not us, but society perpetuates rape culture. And so I'm not saying you're rapist, but you're assisting in prove in putting up the barriers to women beating it. So makes sense. Yes, that's problematic. No, because I've got to say something, even I think it's not. Make it now, ha ha ha. We go what has been beneath a man's insistence that purity culture is the only way. It's a belief that women are, it's a believed to serve their husband's and should be available when their husbands want them to be available sexually. Look, I think there's huge fuck off issues with institutions that engage in that sort of baby like. I don't I think that if you're truly interested in participating in purity culture and the whole God, I don't. I don't want even talk about the church or anything, because let me just say something else. Purity culture doesn't mean. When I say purity culture, I don't I'm not talking about every single person who wants to wait to get married, to have set. Yeah, like it's the the institution of purity culture. Yes, I think it, because I also think like. I mean fundaments. I think who, in their like actual own independent brain is like I must wait, like. I don't think people are like that. No, I just think it's impossible to extract the conditioning from the brain of watch those youtube videos where they like we didn't hold hand still marriage. Yes, Oh my God, it's and the book and everyone can do what they want. Seriously, but I would advise against it. What the fuck are you doing? Imagine, like, imagine if they brought fear factor back and it was like putting people from purity culture and they were like touch fingers, ha ha, ha ha. It's like Joe Rogan, Ha, who I'm not sure if everyone knows is, but he used to host, you a fact, one of the best shows everyone televisions. Yeah, he was the host. Like God, you remember the show? Yeah, but I don't think I've ever watched it. It's so good. They used to put people in like beds of bugs and stuff or jump out of plans. I think I've seen you'd have to do three rounds and yeah, I can imagine them getting like people who like never had sex before and they're like, I've been with Brandon for seven years and we've never even looked each other in that lies. It's like first round, old hand, I can't do it. We're leaving a million dollars behind. Like there's so much research about the impacts of purity culture on people, are particularly young women. Well, I guess I actually know. I retracted on everybody, because it does. It turns people into perpetrators and also into like survivor victims. So I don't have anything nice say at it. Nothing Nice to say. Well, it's PVO is here. Be Like, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say get even at all. If you haven't got a smile, stay at home. Scott Morrison's new covid messaging. I mean, I think that, like when I say comes back to your boundaries, I think that's what I mean. Like at some points, if...

...we go into and if someone goes into an interaction or like a sexual experience with someone else that they might like, I've never seen before, like it's a first day or first took up or whatever one there's like you need to have your own boundaries to what you do and don't accept and want and consent to. Sometimes it's not your choice. What happens in that situation if someone betrays you and assault right, that's not I'm saying, but I think that, like in a casual environment, if the other person is not a fucking rapist and they are an okaycommunicator or Bob. But I think you need to have a certain ability to say no. Yes, but what, like I know at you know, younger me would have let things happen that I didn't want to do and just not said anything. Yeah, and I think that that's, for like, why I couldn't engage in casual relationships, because I didn't trust myself to like put my hand. I'm like no, thank you, yeah, and that's I mean, that's not that's just me. Like I think that now, absolutely, I could be like no, fuck off right, but I think for a lot of people that is tough sometimes, and that's that's why it can be totally emotionally draining, a bad experience, because you're just not that actively communicating. I think a lot of sex, especially when we're younger, can be like that. MMM, because we're not given the education that we need at the time. Yeah, exactly. And the other thing is that I meant to mentioned before but I forgot, is that like, I think claiming that Hook up culture like causes rap culture or has a relationship with rap culture is ignoring the fact that many, many, many instances of a sexual assault or rape happen within a relationship? Yes, and that's not hookup culture you're fucking like in many countries marital rape is legal. And there's the thing is because, like earlier what you were saying was, you know, I think that people are a willing to blame women who engage in Hook up culture if they're raped. But it's interesting because if you're not engaging, who got culch and you're dating or married to someone and then you are raped, people are even more disc not even more, but just as dismissive of what's happened to you, because that's your partner, right, and that's like that's totally legal, like marital rapist, totally legal in some countries. Yeah, yes, like, well, you married him, so why didn't you want to? Yeah, sex, HMM, which is so interesting that people can't understandment to me. Me Too, I don't know if it's like you're a possession and object even more so in that situation and it's like, well, why don't you make yourself available? Yeah, and I think, like I would never say like it's like worse to be assaulted in one way or the other, but there is something like particularly so fucked up about someone who you're in a relationship with like just violating your trust and yeah, you like physically and mentally and emotionally. So I think that's I think that is probably the biggest argument against the fact that against the agument the hookup culture in perpetuate right culture, Yep, is that rape culture. Happens everywhere, and that was one of my biggest points with the purity culture thing. Like, if we're talking about purity culture sex, we're talking about sex within a marriage being the only time that it's okay. Yeah, so it's just I really don't think they have a relationship with each other. If you didn't find us a completely insufferable come back next Wednesday for a new episode. Could also find us on instagram at cheek media co or online cheek Mediacom. To Day you. Yes, that's the WAE, that's the one.

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