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The Weekly Cheek
The Weekly Cheek

Episode · 3 months ago

78. Can women objectify men?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we're talking about the female gaze! Does it exist? Can women objectify and sexualise men? Can power structures loop back on themselves? Where is the patriarchy in all of this?

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Hello, I'm Christen Parison Otto and I'm had a ferguson and where co founders of cheek media go. This is the weekly Cheek podcast. Before we sent this podcast, I would like to acknowledge that we are on stolen land of the Jagger and turable people, and I would like to acknowledge their elders, past, present and emerging. Welcome back to the weekly cheeks. Welcome. Today we are talking about the female gays. Yeah, if that is in fact a thing, Oh fuck Jesus, Christ, just just do your intro. So first of all, yeah, we don't talk about the male gays. And what the gays is okay, the gays with a said, not the gay people. I didn't even think about I'd want to say. Look, community, and, by by the way, I'm like to said the gays. I don't happy pride. I don't think straight people are allowed to say the gays. Do you think? No, I don't think I am allowed to say that. EVERYBODIC did. You didn't. Oh, but he said. You repeating what I said? Yes, but that's fine. No, I wouldn't say the gays. I'm allowing you, as you also can't call yourself an our lie. Know, someone else must bestow that upon you. Well, my gay friend gave me an hour. I share. It's my favorite thing I own. It's five years ago and she did it as a joke, but I have it. You've never wanted a public to have you here. I've never seen you wear it. No, I don't wear it out now. Oh, I first got it. Okay, yeah, I don't think that's fine. Yeah, it's fun. It's the light blue, like a rainbow alle on it straight. You've always have to be involved. I know, inject something different and everything the worst. The male gays mail guys. What that? The idea of the male gays is the way that men perceive women through heterosexual desire. Yuck. So it's like this lens that supplied to like patriarchal structures and systems and projected onto women as to the idea of who they should be in order to be hot and be desired by men. Yes, so a couple of like examples where it kind of is present. Is like all beer ads are a big one. Yep, because it's like the beer. And then it's like a conventionally attractive woman wearing a bikini. Yeah, and like that is cattering fully to the mail gays. And then I think, like, if you want to take it like to the lengths that it's been taken to by feminists, it's you can't really, I don't think you can talk about that, the mail gays these days, without talking about like internalizing the mail gays and like performing, like individual women performing for the mail gays. So, like you could argue, and I would. I'm not going to into this now because I did it in another episode about Em Rada. Can Go back and look. But like people, maybe instagram models, celebrities, people who have a platform, or even people who don't making themselves set like taking hot, sexy picks online that cater to the male gays in order to gain some kind of currency, I guess,...

...social currency, you could say, all like literal currency, because a lot of people, like advertisers, will then pay those people to wear their stuff or, yes, the stuff. So and look, we have argued about that too, but today's podcast is on whether the female gays exists. Yeah, so what. Okay, how did this start? You were talking yesterday. We're in the car driving and you were talking about a tick tock that you would watched where someone that were at started. Yeah, you were saying someone had tried to dress up, like put on a black dress, and what it would look like for the female gays and what it would like for the male gays. And I was told, Hannah, that I hated. I was made angry, right, and then you said like and then I said, well, what would be? I said the thing about those sort of videos is the male gays is like, puts on heels, puts on a red lip, does their hair a certain way, tightens the dress in some way, like accentuates all the bits that men like, and then the female gays version was like puts a Hoodie over it, and I said to you, that's not the female gays, that's not being sexually objectified. So it's incorrect to me because I don't think that like our mildred make it lumpy, is like rock gays, because my argument is that in itself is saying that women do not have sexual desire and cannot apply their own individual lens to objectify or have desire of men or women. Right. So my thing is I think that that's under selling our sexuality ourselves and are at level of attraction and I think the female gays does exist and I think that it's just very different to the male gays. But that's not it. I was saying to you and you were like, it doesn't exist. When we're going to fight, and then we said save it for the pot. We're not going to fight till tomorrow. But my cell was and I will say I think this is reductive, because I think the female gays is much broader than the male gays. But what men think the female gays is is Chris Hemsworth, yeah, but what the real female gays is might be like Andrey Garfield. Yeah, that's my argument right. I'm not actually attracted to either of those people, but I think that's the difference. Men Don't actually care enough about the female gays to identify it and cater to it, because they're taught they don't have to. Yes, that, they just get hot women. That's why I think it doesn't exist. No, that's not true. Just because men don't believe or are unaware of something doesn't undermine its existence. Yeah, but what if you are like I'm going to live in a matriarchal family. It doesn't mean that you've liked gotten rid of the patriarchy. No, but you can have both. I just but, like science, I think that's reductive, like you're saying. Because men don't agree or believe or care about something, it can't exist. I have a fucking that's that's not what I'm saying. Okay, go on. I just think that the male gays is like a product of the patriarchy, right, and that that that is why it exists. There's no, there'sn't that. I mean, and I don't want to like to say that there's no matriarchy, because a lot of cultures actually operate under a matriarchy. But in like the society that we leave it in,...

...and in Australia, in like Western countries, predominantly, we all live under a patriarchy, not a matriarchy, right. And so the I don't think it's like, because the mail gays is not just about, like, what every man finds attractive. It's about how society this the pressures that society puts on women. What are the like? It's to say that there's a female gays is to say that the matriarchy is putting pressure on ment to look a certain way. Not Seeing. That's very good, that's very good argument. Got Cha. No, no, no, I wouldn't say it was a got Sha. Actually get absolutely fuck. You're saying it's a good Argu because you have a respond no, not yet, but I'm going to think, I I can't help us reductive and I'm gonna I'm going to make an argument that I know is inherently unethical. Okay, and you're going to say you're fucking canceled Queen, but I'm gonna do it. It's unfortunately a subsect of like the not all men argument. Ah, I know, I'm just gonna have preface it with that. Yeah, so sorry that you have to say that, because we don't exist under a matriarchy and men don't actually know he's a better one. Who are we to say that men don't feel affected by our gays? It's not from us. The what they are affected by is the patriarchy, not the female gays, but men want to look hot for women, some men, but but they're their thoughts. Their thoughts about like I have to be Tan and blond and cut and whatever Chris ems were, are the male gays's idea of the female gay. That's all the patriarchy. But does he know not about what women like? Okay, here's the thing. Women. Some women obviously find that attractive like that. I'm not going to deny that at all, and that's okay and that's fine. And everyone has their own an usually modern the Rock Ryan Reynolds ripens. What is the whole that these men? Ryan Reynolds, Oh snack, go black lively, and she is a bigger snap than him. But so there are individual women, but like, we do not like. Unfortunately, and it pains me to say this, in our society, women, the Matriarchy does not have the power to infiltrate like this. Christen, I want to have a gaze. Is this what happens? Is About? You want, I have a gaze. Why can't I have a game of Hannah's gay? Want, not fucking days and we have a gaze. We do know. We don't guess. We do know because the male gays is not what whatever, literally each individual man finds hot. It's a product of the patriarchy. Okay, I don't like this, but I'm trying to argue it. Fuck, I should have been more prepared. You a game that we can play in the international of this. Okay, but I think there are variations of the female...

...gays that men try to pander to. There's a lot more categories. I don't know there's a holistic female gays, but I think that there's things that men try to be and fit into, certain archetypes of men to please women. But it's that's patriarchal. Again. No, it's not, because you know what I think and I'm happy to fight with you of a SEIS degree, I think, because so women are told, you need this kind of man because that is the the pinnacle of manliness and being a man under the patriarchy. So the Patriarchy is at the top being like two women. You need a man who's muscly and there's like a bear and so powerful, like tile ban, but with manners, and then women are internalizing that and then they're like looking out for a man that fits all. That is patriarchy, not fucking female gays. Can Patriarchy create both? No, but the inherent belief to that is taught to women of what the female gays should be is a female gays. I actually think that's just the male gays. No, I no, I don't. I take that back. I think it's patriarchy. Yeah, but I still think it's the female gays, I did, is determined by the Patriarchy and like, what is this thing you're talking about? It don't know what it is. I feel, my guys, does not exist. I think here's the thing. I think that under patriarchy there's a male gays. We all know what that is. There's a female gays, deemed and imposed on us by patriarchy, but it's still a female gays that we are taught to want, and therefore that is why a lot of women, especially older women, are attracted to these large, bear masculine men like Chris Hemsworth. Then outside of Patriarchy, I believe exists a true female gays, but the mail gays is not true in any way. No, but also, if we're seeing the male gays by definition as something that is a lens through which heterosexual relationships and like desire is field, right, that does go both ways. So under patriarchy there can be a male and female gays, as we're both taught to want the other thing, but it's not necessarily what either party believes. Yeah, but the thing that what other put the what if you're talking about like the real female gays, like that's not that's not a thing. Because everyone has their own taste. Yeah, the gays doesn't exist. On either side. You're saying that they both exist. Ha Ha, ha, ha ha ha. The guys exist, but it's not actually legit. How about that? Like, sorry, I'm not totally agree. I agree, like the male gays is not what every man wants out of every woman. No, but I think that you can't say they don't exist. I'm only because we might getting though. No, Queen, so close to agree in pain in your face. No, so, like, I just want to because you know, you said like there's the the the gays, and then it's like the real gays. I just want the...

...like that's us, that sort of thing. Okay, but there's no. We are there fake gays that if we're there's no. They're both wrong and you and gays. Okay, but I think the thing is is that you're saying that it doesn't exist by virtue of the fact that not all people wanted yes, which is why it's a problem. You can't say that something doesn't exist because not everyone has the gays. No, I'm saying that. Okay, let's just use the male gays, because the film, I guess, is ness. So don't fucking end myself. There's the male gays, right, that is not a collection of what all men want for all women. Yes, I agree, that's the problem with it. Keep going. That's it. That's the problem. Yeah, but it exists. It's base. It's being created by Patriarchy, by society. Like but it is a real thing. Yes, yes, it definitely absolutely exists, but it's not any it's not like any stretch of the truth. Okay, but subsequently, the female gays is not what all women want. It is taught and imposed on us as what is attractive in men and what we should look for and seek out in a partner, just as the male gays is. If I agree that the film I gail gays existed, I would say that's absolutely what it is. So what is your disagreement with what I've just said? I don't agree that that's the female gays because it is not create. The male gays was created by men, by the patriarchy. Yep. So do you think the female gas was created by the Patriarchy, by men? Yes, but then it's not. It's not a feelm I get female gaze. Then it's part of the patriarchy, not the man. I am saying that something that is taught and imposed on us, even if created by men, still exist. It's incorrect, just as the male gays is, but it exists. Now I don't think it exists. Be Okay. Here we do not see men sexualized in the way that we see women sexualized, but we do see them sexual must have the same power and pull that sexualized women have. But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I don't think a certain thing it does. No, but I agree with what you're saying. But I do not think that that undermines the existence to say it doesn't exist at all. You cannot say that this whole idea of the Chris Hemsworth bear masculine, hyper hypermasculament. It's created and imposed by patriarchy. But when we talk about the female gays, you say doesn't exist. Agree, right, created by men, agree right. But when I say it, you know what the presumption of it is. So percent. So it exists. No, I know what you're saying. I don't think it's its own separate thing. That's my thing. What do you think? It is part of the patriarchy. You could even argue that it is actually paid a part of the male gays. I think it is part of the male gays, but I think they're so inherently connected and both wrong. Here's the thing. It's about power for me, because men, like have power in our society. Therefore they have the power to create this male gaze. I just don't think that women have the power...

...in that society, particularly against or compared to men, to be able to have our own gays. I think we have more power than you're describing. Not In a not in a societal like structures of the world. Way, no, but like I don't know, because I don't think that women are equal to men, but I think that we're close enough to have a fucking gays? I don't think so. Some reason the gays is so problematic. Yet I want it because it's a show of power. Did that fucked up? Yes, because that means you want to I want to work. Yes, increase like rise to meet men instead of having men come down to meet I disagree with the gays, but I think that there's enough problematic women in this world behaving in the way that men do and participating in Patriarchy in the way that men do to have the gays. Yes, but they are participating, their contributing to the patriarchy. They're not actually getting because I think that women who do, like I guess, rise to those heights are actually contributing and feeding into the patriarchy. They're not creating their own thing, not for women, agree, but I still think that that contributes to the existence of the gays. I think that could further contributes to the Patriarchy and then extends to the male gays. No, yes, but I think that many women genuinely are attracted to what is defined and imposed as the female gays, because we're taught to love it right. We've yeah, and also many men are are attracted to women who fit them out of gays. Yes, I just don't understand how you can deny its existence, because I just don't because the male gays is not men finding women are is not men finding Um, skinny, Tan blond women attractive. What is it then? It's the objectification of a certain type of woman and pressure for every single woman to live up to that standard. But, and so you're saying, but because men don't feel that, it can't exist. Yeah, I think men do feel that because of patriarchy. Yes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But the the the pressure on women to be skinny and hot and white and tanned and blond, comes from the way that men treat us, because we are live in a patriarchal society. Absolutely, pressure for men, like the pressure that's on men to be cut and tall and you don't handsome, does not come from women. If it does, no, it doesn't. It comes from men and women. It doesn't come from women. I think that part of the male gays comes from other women. It comes from patriarchy. Yes, and women can enforce that. Yes, through by feeding into the Patriarch. Yes, not as a woman. Yes. What are we agreeing? Yes, you're just saying it's I'm saying that anyone who participates in Patriarchy can enforce these things. Yeah, and you just keep saying it doesn't exist. Now I'm saying, if the fucking does, that's because, again, like women put like feeding into the male gays, is because they're participating the patriarchy, not because they're making their own thing. But I think that you're taking away the agency. Know, they have agency to make up make the Patriarchy worse than it was before and more our yes, but just because we're all living...

...under patriarchal society, doesn't mean it doesn't fucking exist. I still don't think it exists. Do you actually think that men have the pressure to feel hot because of literal women, because of both men and women? Women just don't have enough. We women don't do how. I disagree with that. No, we don't have enough power. We do. Institutionally and structurally we do not. No, I fucking so hard disagree with this because I think if we want to like pair it down to it like, let's say, a situation with two two men, and obviously it's much were complicated than this one guy telling his friend, you, Bro, you need to lose weight or you'll never find a girl. That's men enforcing it upon other men. It's not about a woman, it's about the idea. It's about fitting into patriarchal standards that for men so that you can be attractive enough to find a mate or a partner. I want to establish that. I think that the imposition of men on women is much more significant. Yeah, court, the imposition of women. I mean, I am not fucking arguing that. Man How just the roughest time out there, but I think you are under selling the ability of men to become stressed, intimidated and want to look a certain way for women. And you're saying, I get that, that you're saying that other men have actually created that system and blah, blah, blah. I still believe that women have significant power in Inflo and seeing that feeling and that men genuinely want to look a certain way for women, not caused by men, but caused by women. I don't agree. I just think you are completely underselling our fucking abilities. But I don't think it's about agency. I think you're underselling our power. I don't think that. Doesn't is not what I'm intending to do, but you are to me it's. But it's not about individual women. No, I'm not saying that either. But we don't leave. We live in a man's world. No, I agree, but I don't feel that. I don't feel that it's as I hate that. I hate this. I feel that the world you're explaining doesn't feel like the world I live in. What I really yes, Jesus, I think it's a man's world, but I think that I can traumatize a man relatively just as easy as he controls. To traumatize me. That's so that that's on an individual level. No, I know, but in individual level does over time create fucking group power? No, it doesn't. I do not think the difference is the one you're describing. No, I just, I just, I think the world you're describing to me is like we're just little women. That's what it sounds like and what it feels like. That's not my intention, now, I know, but that's the outcome. MMM, I just women do not have power over men on a on a societal level. That's what it comes down to to me. I agree with you, but I still think that the levels we're both at a really different I just think, like it's not it's not about individual women's power. No, I know,...

...but unfortunately, the end of the day, like, I'm not saying it's about individual women's power, but I'm saying that, like the way I feel matters to how I feel about society and our collective power. The way I experience the world has a contribution to that. Yeah, but I just don't think it's about you. No, I know, I don't think it's about me either, but my position is that I don't think that women heart so powers as you're describing. I don't think it's. I'm not saying that women are powerless, no, I know, but the power in balance you're describing as much more significant than I feel it is in reality. Really, yes, you think I'm under selling the power in balance between men and women. Yes, when we're talking about like the gazes, I think you're under selling us. Not Overall. I am truly shocked at this. Is At that that at the pinnacle, I'd like, the heart of your argument. That is absolutely I don't think it's the heart of my argument. I think it's a heart of our disagreement. Okay, heard of our disagreement, because I think the female gays exist because I think women have the ability to impose a gaze on men as and and contributing to what men impose on men. I think we have the power to collectively impose that. I don't think that where the majority of the imposition. I think men do it more to men than women do it to men right and I think that when we talk about the male gays, women, some few, contribute to it, men mostly, but I think on both sides men are the larger culprit but women have the power to contribute. You yeah, to making it worse or better. Right. So my thing is I think they both exist and both parties contribute, but in every circumstance women to a much less significant extent. Do you know another thing that I and maybe like this is not what you think, but when you're saying like that, it sounds like I'm saying women and do not have the power. It's also just not about like what I'm talking about women. I'm not talking about like all of the women that I know. Yeah, like I'm too. It's like systems. Yes, I know you keep sayings on individual I know, I'm just talking about my opinion. I don't know why I'm I gonna think it's so wrong. I I am truly shocked that you think that women's true opinions have the ability to pressure men into looking a certain way. I don't know, but I just like talk to men who do feel that way. But it's not from literal women. It's not from like women as a group. I've got it's from the patriarchy, yes, but we can contribute to patriarchy. Yes, but we are feeding into the patriarchal system. We're not making our own system. I know, I know, so we're going on all of that, yes, but also like I feel like these ideas are taught by Patriarchy and by men to women, the imposed us by men. Yes, and then we feed it back. No, it doesn't go back. Why? But that doesn't make any...

...saying. How? So they they're putting pressure on themselves and then we are swooping in and we're getting pressure and then we're looping back and putting that pressure on them. Well, if women are taught that the female gays is has come from men right and that any power that we do have comes from the female guys that we've been taught to impose on men, then it's going back. That's my view. I don't think it can go back. Do you think that? I do think power structures can loop up and around. Sorry, I interrupted. I just don't think that we're not going to agree. Ever, no, then that's fine. The way it just feels to me is that you're just saying like we are making no contribution and I'm not fucking defending men. I think I'm defending women. Oh No, I definitely think that I agree that that's what you are doing. I just I know, and even if my views of what's attractive or not attractive might be based on something that I find attracted, because I do find really weird looking people attractive personally. And then what I'm taught by men and women who are feel by patriarchy. And I know this individual, but I think it's helpful to bring it back to that sometimes. Right. I know when I'm sitting there Swiping, that I'm saying no to people and that they don't know that. Yes, but I'm saying no to people and rejecting them on their looks, based on the female and male gays. I don't think that's what you're doing. Why? Because your are you not swiping people based on who you find attractive? Of course, it's a picture. That's all I've got. Yeah, so it's not the it's not the female gays. You think the gays is made up of much more than how someone looks. I just think that. So, let's say, everywhere in one of those fucking male strip plote like yeah, my magic mic shows, Ye, women watching objectively hot men strip. That's not the female gays. I just don't think it's like a larger struck. Okay, I think it is the female gays, but it's not what we fo we I don't but it's not about us. No, I know, but what I'm saying is it's the female gays imposed by most men and some women. That's what I'm saying. Disagree, but whither? Why? Why would I tell you? Okay, so I can see what what that you your perception of what I'm saying is like. Women don't have enough power to do such a thing. But it is. It's more because I think that women broadly as a group, we are the oppressed when we're looking at gender. I knew this is going to come to and I'm not talking about I'm not talking about like, you know, whether or not a white woman is oppressed. What, when we're looking at pressed or and the the oppressed. Yes, when we're looking at gender, sex as a as an...

...issue, men are the oppressors and the other genders are the oppressed. Always. And I do not believe by any stretch of the imagination that in that like closed vacuum that the oppressed can oppress the oppress or ever, I do not believe it is ever possible. Now, can let's say, like a can a woman sexually assault a man? Absolutely, but in a system of oppression, that it cannot work the other way around. No, I know, so you're saying. I'm not. You're saying they're individually, everything could happen, but as a system it's a very I just find it a very reductive way of looking at things. I think it's just makes I just think it's how it is. I agree with you. I agree with you, but I think I just think that's not offering any nuance or discussion. I think that's just closing the book and saying but I think that's what it is. Yeah, but I don't think that's where the conversation ends. No, because, but I said that on an individual level, I like put in in a relationship or woman can have the power and the man can be the like the victim of the survivor. Yeah, absolutely, in an individual relationship. But we're talking about broad spectrum. But the thing is, if we're talking about broad spectrum, we lose all of that right, which you know. But what I'm saying is the topic of conversation here needs more right. You're talking about female guys, male gays and whether it exists or not. I fundamentally understand that. From that broad view, you say it doesn't exist. And I get that because on a sister at a system institutional level, I agree with you. I agree with you if we're talking about the more binary view of like who's the oppressed, who is the oppressor? Agree, but I don't think that when we get into a discussion that's even ten percent deeper than that, that we can maintain that view. But the feet, but the mail gays is a product of that high level structure, I know, but it's more than that one. That's where it sits. I don't think it's that high. I don't think it's that high. It's up with like like pay. Part of the paycharchy is built on the fundamentals of like objectifying and sexualizing women. Yes, it's up there. Yeah, I know, but I don't. I just think it's it's reducted to save. There's no female gays. Even if it's created by men. You're saying it doesn't exist if it is create, but a creator by created by men, but I think that it is executed by women and men. Still don't think it's a I know, I know it's at an individual level, but I'm I don't think it's one person. I think it's much more than one. It's not enough. Maybe to talk about it in an institutional level, but I think that to just blatantly say it doesn't exist is reductive. Fair enough, but I agree with you. I do agree with what you're saying. We had a that was of the biggest fight we've ever had, to be honest, but I just I actually about to lose it like seven minutes. But...

I just don't think while we're already at time, I don't think that it my position is not coming from saying women don't have power. No, and I get that now, but at the time it just feels like it's like, well, you're saying it's either individual. You're saying it's either at an individual level things can happen, or an institutional level it's a yes no, and I just think that we can do better than those two options and then we can look from middle ground and have a discussion. I I agree, but I think that in my opinion, mal gays is like one of the key pillars of the Patriarchy and is at a very high institutional level and it cannot be end. In my opinion, that is the end of it. What about a world where, if it's a pyramid and we've got like patriarch at the top and we've got male guys underneath, and then have a few more things and then we have female gays. No, it's not that it doesn't ex Fu. Come on, can you please have some sort of compromise? No, not on this I'm not. I don't think that the female gays is institutionally high and threatening and mighty and powerful and awful as the male gays. No, but I think at a low level it exists. M I still don't think so. I also think that it's a it's about like like the the mal gays, I think, can't be talked about without talking about like the threat like men like can threaten and women. Yeah, in a way that women I can't as a whole totally not a great man. Yes, and I think that is a key part of the male gays. I don't think it's a key part. I think it's a key part of patriarchy. I don't get to keep out of the male gays, fair enough, but I think it's built on if not a key part, then I think the mal gays is built on that belief that like, a man can always threaten a woman because they can impose that on them. Yeah, absolutely, but that's what I'm saying. I'm saying the female gays is not hold even nearly as much away as the male gays, but I think that we can't say it doesn't exist. I just think that there I do definitely see what you mean, but I just think that if we're going to be talking about a gaze, it has to be at a very high level, that it's like practiced by society as a whole. Yeah, no, I get that, because I think the male gays is practice by society as a whole. In the female gays is not. But you know, again you say when I talk about an individual level, well, it's more than an individual of female gays. It's maybe one tear up. MMM, I think it. That's where probably I think it's too complicated, I know, but I think it's specific. Will that's the topic to me. So I think we need to but I think if you have a male gaze and a female gays that can't be like this is ones up here and that one's down there. They're not comparable. No, I agree with that. It's not a gay, but the question is whether it exists. Sort I still don't think it exists, but I think it's practiced by like a demographic of society. But I think it's way too complicated to say there's a male gays up here, very like widespread and widespread as I think we're the worb that can't and then...

...there's the female gays. That doesn't really have as much power. Then it's not the female gaze. Well, okay, but I think that's similar to misogyny and Mess Andry, beauty standards for men. Yeah, probably you think that's the female gays. No, I don't think it's. That's what the female guys both think. It's a contributing factor. I think it defines and encompasses the female gays, but I think it's a it's a dot point, but I think it's the same conversation to be had about missogyny and Miss Andre. Sogyny is high level across the board. Women can do it to themselves. Yeah, everyone can do it to each other. Right. Miss Andre is not even fucking close, but it exists. It doesn't have any of the power that misogyny has. It's much lower on the scale. It's not practice wildly and when it is it's pointed out and and persecuted significantly. Hard of the misogyny is, but they both exist. It's we're on the spectrum and we're in importance and we're in practice. I'm going to say so you now that you're either going to be like, Oh my God or you're gonna be like everything makes sense. I don't really believe in a century should we enter not? Oh God. Does that make sense though my arguments? Yes, of course. When I say that existence, anyone can practice it and we know what it is. So how is that not exist? That's my that's my question. I mean, I'm not going to go it's sort of the same stuff. Yeah, fucking Hell, and I'll get it. I would like getting shit if I talked about that more. I think I've triggered my final flight personally. Okay, well then, buy. If you didn't find us a completely insufferable come back next Wednesday for a new episode. Could also find us on instagram at cheek media co or online cheek Mediacom. To Day you. Yes, that's the Wa that's the one.

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