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The Weekly Cheek
The Weekly Cheek

Episode · 1 year ago

14. Will Brittany Higgins' sacrifice of privacy create change?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we're talking about Brittany Higgins' allegations, the culture of covering up assault, harassment, and misogyny in Canberra and the world at large, and why we believe the key to change is staying angry.

Read our latest on the Brittany Higgins case: https://bit.ly/3uqZVJ5 

Find us on the web at www.cheekmedia.com.au, on Instagram at www.instagram.com/cheekmediaco on Facebook at www.facebook.com/cheekmediaco, on Twitter at www.twitter.com/cheekmediaco, and on LinkedIn at www.linkedin.com/company/69318475 

... of Cheek mediac this is the week the cheek podcast. Every single woman I know has been sexually harass at the very least. I find it difficult sometimes to talk about things that have happened to meet with men because they said, I'm really sorry that happened to you. That's not what I don't second care, I feel sorry, not why I'm sharing it with exactly. Welcome back to the weekly Cheek podcast. In this episode, Har and I are talking about the Brittany Higgins case, as well as the general culture of covering up these issues within the Liberal Party and also in the world at large. Since we recorded, three more women have come out to say that they were allegedly harassed or assaulted by the same man who Britney Higgins has alleged raped her. So we did not mention that because it happened after we recorded this episode. And before you get any further, this episode does need a content warning. There is some talk of sexual assault and harassment and may not be appropriate for some listeners. Let's get into the episode. This week, newscom today you reported that a former Liberal Party staff are. Brittany Higgins was allegedly raped at Parliament House in Defense Minister Linda Reynolds as office by a colleague. Higgins stated she felt forced to choose between reporting the rape or attaining her job. After being called in for a formal employment meeting in the room where the rape it occurred. Higgins describe the experience, saying it feel like a crisis to be managed by seeing your staff. In response to Higgins's allegation, the Prime Minister of Australia, Scott Morrison, offered a statement. In the statement, Morrison made specific reference to a conversation that he'd had with his wife, Jenny. He said, Jenny and I spoke last night and she said to me, you have to think about this as a father first. What would you want to happen if it were our girls? Jenny has a way of clarifying things, always has, and so as I've reflected on that overnight and listen to Brittany and what she had to say, it shatters me that's still in this day and age a young woman can find herself in the vulnerable situation that she was in, not her doing. It was so weird that he added that last sentence, by the way, and it places this sort of Christian situation back on her. Yeah, like to say confined herself. HMM, like she's found herself there, she's located herself. Yeah, amidst a rape. Yeah, like what a strange it is, really, Steven. If he didn't mean it like that, it's just such an either he's extremely low in the brain cell count or he's got a PR problem, because that just doesn't make sense. I mean, I I think that he has a PR problem because I don't think he thinks things true before he says them. But even this statement, it just like it actually it goes beyond Scott Morrison and like I don't want to kind of skip over him in the people that we want to held accountable, because obviously he's the leader of the little party, he's leader of the entire country. It's not, you know, you don't get a free pass. But I think that like, and I know like I don't really want to talk too much about like, you know, why does it we have? Why does ever put in the context of his daughters, because a lot of people are spoken about that and we have an article about that on the website. But why is this still something that has to be contextualized? Like how many times have to happen? Why would he say not her doing? Obviously it's not like there's no why is that even something that you would even mention? Why, like, why would you've encirculate or skirt around that concept? Yeah, like it's so clearly not. Yeah, and the thing is, is that realistically for him, either it'sn't, like it's true or it's an allegation. Yeah, but regardless, you wouldn't say no. You know, it just doesn't even make sense. Now, I completely agree, like everyone's covered like the contextualization of like the fact that this person had to think about their daughters to understand the vicarious trauma. Yeah, but I think what it does say, and that's maybe something that's not talked about as much, is it says a lot about the problem with the diversity of government that when you have a range of white men who are upper class or upper middle class over the age of fifty one, they don't have genuine exposure to real world problems, and that's vital here. Yeah, I think because this young woman who is starting out in her career has been put in an extremely vulnerable position, one of the worst things that will ever happen in her life, but it's on the public stage. Yeah, she had to go to her bosses, she had to do so many things that they can't even fucking fathom having to do because they're in big thrones and that would never happen to them and everyone would believe them. And the issue for me is is that it's it communicates so much about how little they understand about what real people experience. But then at the same time, if all of this stuff, if stuff like this is keeps happening in the Liberal Party in camera, which is what we are hearing, then should they not like, have they not seen it before? I don't think that they actually genuinely either have the capacity...

...to or do attempt to empathize with this trauma. HMM. And this the repercussions of these sort of actions. Yeah, I also think that the way that they perceive these things is different, like when you consider the four corners episode, which we'll mention a lot in this episode, which was a few weeks ag about the Canbra bubble and sort of like this imbalance in power dynamics and sort of alleged either misogynistic or sexual assault and violence behavior. The issue is is that I think a lot of people, and this is very common, of you know men in in prominent positions in the work person I'm not saying this is anyone particular, sort of perceive these experiences to maybe be like career furthering for women and not the sort of assault environments that we as women understand has occurred and gone down. Yeah, when people tell us these things, yeah, and I'm not saying that's like a particular lack of understanding, I think that sometimes they frame it differently in order to accept and be able to move on themselves. MMM, that's my perception of some of it. Yeah, I just MMM, when I when I was thinking about this episode this morning and yesterday the day before, I was just like how, how many times must this happen? Because in the fore corners of episode that was that should have been groundbreaking journalism. Like someone lost her job over that. The person in the barrister, barrister, she lost her job or she was, you lost barred exactly, and they said it wasn't to do with it. I'm darn well that and all of these like, you know, some prominent women and some liberal staffers who genuinely worked there for a number of years, like you know, close to a decade, spoke out and yet we spoke about that for a day and then we fucking moved on with our lives. But I think it's because we're saturated with such horrible stories in the media at the moment and we've all become such desensitized. Yeah, and so its cynical towards politicians, yeah, towards a large part of the world. Yeah, like I think everyone's engrossed in things like the US election, because once you experience something like Donald Trump, hmm, your exposure levels and your ability to tolerate and digest certain information increases, increases. Yeah, and that's not okay. And the thing I constantly thought about for the last two days was I wish I could sit there and be like don't worry, will get yeah, and I can't. Yeah, no, I can't say that because I don't trust Australia from to understand the gravity of the situation. No, and in the article that was published on Cheek yesterday as a recording, this a last Tuesday, basically one of the themes of the article was that Scott Morrison is likely to be reelected ye in you know d see it, or next year or whenever it is. I, for one, was not surprised to read the news about Brittany, not at all. I was very like upset and disturbed by the actual facts that she provided, like their or her recount, sorry that she provided, but I wasn't surprised. I'm not surprised that this happened in camera, I'm not supposed it's happening in the Liberal Party and I'm not surprised by Scott Morrison's response. None of that surprises me. And this is the thing, is that it's still disturbs us. But to other people they're not surprised, but they're not thinking about it now. That's the difference exactly, because a lot of and again I said this when I read, I when I watched the four corners camera bubble episode, I went to a couple of women in my life who vote liberal and I was like what, you know, why would you vote for them again? And they were like this this is not a liberal problem. This is just a more general problem. It have, you know. Don't get me wrong, it happens in the Labor Party as well, but people just want to put it out of their minds because they're like, well, politicians suck and they're just want powerful man and they just go off to camera and they leave their families at home. I think it's also comes down to people want to misplace blame, because the person that is the alleged rapist and perpetrated the sexual violence isn't a a household name. Yeah, so I think that. Well, we don't know, but I think the thing is is that people want to see, you know, push blame off Reynolds. They want to push blame off Morrison because they didn't do it. Yeah, well, hang on a second. They've had a hand in literally destroying someone's life. Yeah, exactly, and the other things that so they're as we're recording this, we have just been made aware breaking news center of a statement from Brittany. I get it. Okay, so a few hours ago there was a sort of updated response from Brittany and it says I've only been made aware of key elements of my own sexual assault as a result of coming forward publicly with my story. I didn't know that security guys, let me into Minister Reynolds a sweet I didn't know that security guards came into the office multiple time, seeing me in a state of undress. I didn't know they were undertaking an internal review into how the matter was handled at the time. I didn't know that they debated calling an ambulance at the time of the incident. The continued victim blaming rhetoric by the prime minister is personally very distressing to me and counts other survivors are current seeing...

...your staff or to the prime minister and my former chief of staff refused to provide me with access to the CCTV footage from that evening and continually made me feel as if my ongoing employment would be jeopardized if I perceived any further with the matter. I mean, there's a lots of like disturbing things about that. I don't I mean, I don't really need to point them out. It's like, for it's very disturbing that she got the details from like news sites. But I think that another thing that we have to think about, and I think this is often skipped over, is that she had to listen to Scott Morrison statement, she had to listen to Senator Reynolds alleged apology that she gave to the Senate, which makes me so furious because she just stood up with her like allotted however many minutes and apologized in quotes too Brittany, when she was actually just apologizing to the media camera that was there anyway. But I think that, like just the very fact that these public figures are making statements for the public when it's actually about one very real individual who has had a traumatic experience and then has to read it what in the news? I highly doubt that Prime Minister and Senator Reynolds called her up and gave her this apology directly to like in on the phone. It's all damage control. Yeah, exactly, it's not. It's not an apology. WHO believes this? Yet I don't want my question. Who the fuck watches that speech and things? Oh, she's really say yeah, you know, like yeah, you're right. Actually that's actually really a good question. Like why are they doing that? They have to tick some box, but no one is even believing the tick anymore. Just Lee, honestly, I've know, but maybe something saying. I don't know how much of a minority we are. Obviously people are age all screaming and, you know, jumping up and doubt about it. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know even know of my parents know that this. Hell, I don't know what older people think about this sort of news. Yeah, that's true. I mean I think it kind of washes over them generally. But then again, like if if the news impacts you, then I don't think it's going to be solved by the apology. But if the if the broken news, does not bother you, you'll probably hear the apology and be like Oh, welling apologize, one big deal. So I guess in that way it's kind of like it's for the people it's for. Speaking of Scomo, the statement that was released, the written statement, said that they were aware that an incident had occurred and then a few days later they were aware that they're they were aware, they became aware of the details. So essentially, I've read it as they knew that a sexual incident occurred and then a couple of days later they found it that it was non consensual. So that was the in the official writing. But again, like, because they didn't really put details, that's kind of what might take is and may not have been how it was, you know, supposed to be whatever. And also the perpetrator, the alleged perpetrator resigned after the alleged rape occurred. So that means that what the government saying is that they knew that something sexual happened and then someone resigned and then, even though Senator Reddals is saying that he was actually terminated now and then a couple of days later after that they found out that it may have not been consensual. And so to me that timeline, it's like, what did you do in those days? Like the Moses claim that they called, they consider calling an ambulance on the night exactly. And then who? But who? Then? Who considered calling the amuals? Was it the security team? Yeah, my question is, what was the immediate response for the staffers exactly? And it seemed like I just there's so much, you know, very slightly conflicting evidence. It's like, well, what you know? Why would you call an ambulance if you thought someone was just having a fun hook up? But also my question is, if an internal reviewers like incited immediately, why would you think it was appropriate to later bring the employee, the survivor, mm in for a formal employment meeting in the room where it happened? Exactly? and May and intimidate her, because she said she felt as though her job was these facts don't thrine. No, they don't align, and it just seems to me like, I mean, at the end of the day, I just wonder, is it just genuine like you, they know that they're lying, they know exactly what they are doing. Or what have they forgotten? You know the scene in promising young woman where the dean was that couldn't remember this reported assault, because so many of them happens every week exactly then sometimes I'm like, do you maybe you've genuinely forgotten the facts, and you don't. You can't speak on them now because you forgot because it was two years ago and who knows how many other things have happened since then. Targe or in it just the fact that it if something is not memorable to me, it's just like, well, that it wasn't a notable day to you. And why is that? If someone came to me, anybody came to...

...me and told me about an assault, there is no fucking way I would forget that. I can actually remember all the places I've heard people talk about being assaulted or harassed, like I can spend point them. I could put them on a fucking Google and honestly, it's actually not that road that your friend comes to you and tells you that there were as salted. It's not right, but I still fucking rember exactly. That's what I mean. Yeah, it's still an important day. Yes, exactly. Know, you're right, it's not as rare as I wish it was. Because even so, yesterday, and I don't want to make this about me, but you know, a standard day. It was a standard Tuesday. So I thought in the day of yesterday I had a what can I call it? I guess a professional altercation. Not In my job, but it was a professional altercation and I am not saying I was in the right, but I believe wholeheartedly that the situation would have been handled differently had I not been a young woman, because he was a man in a powerful position and there and there's there was wording that was used and there were actions that were taken that I was like, this would never happen if I was your equal. Yeah, if I was also a powerful man, this is happening because because I'm a young woman and I'm not an executive, even on the founder of cheek meeting in case and see you so because I gave you the straps well so generously. I also add the podcast something so that happened in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening. I was walking home from the gym in my local neighborhood, where I usually feel very safe, and as I was crossing the road, someone in a cut in a company car with the logo very clearly on the side of the car. As he was turning, he slowed down, turning, driving past me, wound down the window so that he could harass me verbally. In a in a company car, you must own it. He must is a big company's or did you reporter? No, but I meant to. I forgot until now. I will. I will report it because it was a big company and I know exactly what happened. I didn't get the nuther places. I didn't think too because I was like what just the like? I don't know the fact that he went down the windows specifically. I'm like, you wound down that window, especially to end. It was in a suburban neighborhood. He was honestly, probably about to go into his house. How old was he? Maybe thirty, pretty young. Again, this is a regular Tuesday in my life. I barely even left my house that day. I didn't leave my suburb and two things happened like that. Definitely not traumatizing, I poke. I probably will never forget these things that have happened, but this is troubles but again, normal Tuesday for me as a young woman who barely leaves my home. This is like how often? And this is another one of the reasons that I don't understand why it always needs to be contextualized, because this fucking happens all the time, but Scott Morrison can cruise it out his life having not being affected by it. Apparently it happens all the time. It's happening everywhere, all around us. Like the fact that he has to you know, I loved I saw this fucking me the other day where it was like, Oh, hopefully journey can see him down and explain what fucking carbon emissions are to night, like she can get put things into really good context. I don't think this. Definitely doesn't only happen in the government and definitely doesn't only happen in the Liberal Party. It's a very widespread issue. We all know that, but it's a particularly sad state affairs when it's happening in the federal government like the these people work for us as the public. Don't mean to sound like a boom up, but we pay their salary with our taxpayer dollars. They are supposed to be like, advocating for us and protecting us, and instead this is what they're doing with their time. And if you're not, and by the sounds of it, a lot of those people, a lot of the men and just people in the Liberal Party, if they are not doing the assault alleged, they are not allegedly assaulting or making women feel uncomfortable, then they are contributing to covering it up. Yeah, absolutely, like it's hard enough for women to get to any point of government anyway. The vast majority, statistically speaking, of elected officials in Australia are white men over the age of fifty one. So the system is already not set up for us. Women already have to claw their way into those positions and the even the ones that do are still having to put up with this type of culture, still involved with this. You know, I don't want to call it a boys club because I feel like that is dismissive, but no, I and part of me is, and this really sort of hits home and makes it personally. I think a lot of people aurage get on this train. Is it? Brittany had started in this job months before. It was like a dream...

...role. That's that's what she described it as. It's probably pretty hard for her to get the position. Absolutely she's twenty four years old, she's starting out, she's excited, it's the start of her career. It really is this tipping point where she's like about to, you know, explore every avenue of the of the career path that she wants. And months in, you'd kind of just a whole horizon is shattered and take it away from you. And not only that, but the people that are around. It is supposed to be your colleagues who you spend the majority of your day with. Yeah, are the ones that are trying to undermine you, and that must be just like I can't even fathom having. must feel only his is extremely fucking awful thing happened. But then the people that you're supposed to be feel secure enough to tell and on the grounds where it's occurred, and they basically pull the rug out, arm out from underneath you at your lowest moment. Yeah, just it disturbs me. It desturbs me as well, and even though I don't want this to be the case, but it really disturbs me that shit like her superior was a woman. Yeah, a woman in the Liberal Party, who was probably not surprised to hear this either, probably just as unsurprised as we are. And yet she, like there were a lot of women in the four corners episode who were liberal staffers pride, like previous liberal staffers there were. It cut away to a lot of times where women in the Liberal Party, elected members of the Liberal Party, were making statements in parliament and saying, as a party, we need to do better for women, Blah, Blah Blah. Yet it appears from what we've heard and what was reported on four corners that those same women nat still walk past these things happening and they don't actually take action. They and it's what we're always told. Exactly. It's what we're told. What we're told is that white women in positions of power, especially HMM, will do this to other women. Yeah, and I never want to believe it. I never want to like sort of demonize women generally. I never want to do that, and yet I met with these like cold hard facts about them helping berry. Yeah, what's going on? And it's because the thing for me is, is it as we as you discussed earlier, it happens to every woman and some point too. How, at what point in your life, can you possibly pivot from being a victim to assisting the perpetrator? Yeah, in the cover up? Yeah, that's disturbing and it's obviously not them actually assisting the awful act, but it's then prioritizing the look. M and honestly, what's the look? Yeah, if you come out protecting if you come out and say we've had someone raped at Parliament House and we fired the person immediately, we're having an internal review, it's I think it's one day of bad press. Yeah, right, what's going to happen now? The risk you run of doing this to young women, and then something that is coming out, and you know what, I wish I could say, yeah, he'll lose the next election because of this, and it's not true. No, he won't. It's not true. But how many times? How? My question is, how many times has a young staff acclaimed this and they've done this to another Brittany Higgins and they've never said anything. Yeah, how many girls stories have been buried before one got through? HMM, and that's my question, I guess. Is it? How systemach is this? We don't know. It might be one. I don't think it is. I don't think it is either. End Again, in the four corners episode, Senator Sarah Hanson, young from the Green, spoke about a woman who was anonymous, who came to her because she was all like her superior. I think had taken advantage of her. They weren't many details given, but someone had kind of told Sarah in confidence and she was speaking about it on the show. So I mean when I watched I started watching it back this morning and I thought that could have been Brittany or it could have been anyone. Like I struggle to believe that she is the only one. Yeah, I mean, how many people have quit? They would. She was given the option to leave so many times. How many women would have just been like, I'm just going to leave, like this is not worth it, I don't ever want to be here again. I'm going to go back to my life however I was before. I'm really not sure. I'd hope that I've done I would do it Brittany's done, but in experience where this sort of thing has happened to me, obviously I've not been raped, but generally sexually assaulted. Yeah, I haven't said anything besides this sort of forum. Yeah, I mean the other thing is it's not just happening to the young women. Like again on the show there was a late was it? Is it Christina Ken nearly? M Christina can nearly, said that liberal coalition MP's were coming on to her when she was there in her capacity as a journalist for Sky News. Yes, and she said, I'm a public figure, I'm very it's very known...

...that I am married, and she said these people just had absolutely no shame. She and she she said there was nothing like they didn't do anything particularly aggressive to me, but it was just so shameless, like so obvious. Yeah, and that's how they're acting towards a, you know, fully mature woman who has a lot of life experience. So you can only imagine what they're doing to anyone kind of younger than her who they don't perceive to have any I mean to a journalist like that's what, what are you thinking? They don't get another question. They care yet they're alledging to cover it up because of the press. They know they know that they can't be they know that they cannot be stopped by a few bad media stories. And so where's the impetus to hold each other accountable? Okay, so this, like we said, this is not only in government, and recently Whitney Wolf heard, Whitney Wolf heard his being in the views because bumble has just become a publicly as a company. What a Segue, what a seamless segue. Thank you. This is I honestly, honestly, like I don't want to divert from such an important topic, but I will cry. I just can't. I'm so snow about every all of it, like I'm so cynical towards what's going on this week and I don't have it in me to keep going well with this is going to take a doc turn. Great. What I mean is I can't stay on the one, yeah, the one topic. So and but also I think it's personent to note that, even even though we, like we said, should be holding some most an account of this is completely unacceptable behavior. Eat like the buck doesn't stop with him. This is everywhere. So Whitney, the founder of bumble was a CO founder of Tinada. So in two thousand and twelve, I believe, in Semmer two thousand and twelve, she co founded tinder and was the chief marketing officer, I think, or the vice president of marketing. It was something huge, marketing, big, marketing, big, big, bucketing, and essentially it was kind of unclear for a while watch occurred in the breakdown of the relationship between the CO founders, I think. But essentially what happened was when Wolf heard left tinder, she sued tinder. She's sued tinder for sexual harassment, harassment and discrimination and discrimination. Yes, what bounds with discrimination? Might not say. I just didn't find any. Think that's it. It doesn't say. But she was sexually harassed and stripped of her cofounder title by her boss. Yes, so her boss harassed her and stripped her title. I guess that's what pushed her to then start bumble, which she founded in two thousand and fourteen, December, I think. Yeah, but one impressive woman, one of the youngest billionaires. Yeah, I think the youngest billion Oh, no, Kyla general. I wonder if she the youngest self made billionaire. MMM, I I wonder if she still has the stock, because the payout included more than one million dollars plus tender stock. I wouldn't keep it, he just sell it. But what if you could be like eyes all yea true anyway. So it's not about stop, it's not about stock. And if we can cast our minds back, a couple of months ago, triple J had a an ongoing segment went for a couple of days, I believe, about tinder, because women who were reporting assault or harassment from to tinder after they'd been on dates with men who they met on tinder had allegedly been assaulted or harassed, alleged, alleged, blah, blah. It's so annoying to have to say that, but we have to and we're reporting it to tinder and then in the process of the police reports, any type of reporting, getting all the facts together, they were trying to get their messages from tinder because most of the time they're as the story says, the men were, you know, attacking the women and then deleting them or unmatching them on tinder and then the message history disappears. So then the police and or the victims, alleged victims, will going to tinder and saying, please, can we have the god of data, a data yes, and tender was saying, we can't give it to you because we we can't get it. What's really interesting to me is one that they are claiming that it have of the data. I don't understand much of our things like that. Excuse me. Yeah, but I don't understand how you wouldn't because, yeah, daughter like a fuck, I don't understand. Yeah, but they have the data. There's I don't understand what possible privacy clause or protective clause legally would protect them from discovering disclosure of that information. Legally, I have no idea like that does doesn't...

...make sense to me. Well, we say everything. Every time we sign up for an APP, we give them permission to read all about data. Yeah, so I guess that they're protected from giving it over it, but I is it on the basis that they claim they don't have it? Is that true? I can't remember if they said they can't get it or they don't have it or they can't hand it over, but it but it was. They couldn't hand it over for some reason. And so people who are on tender to harass women or assault women. Got Wind of this, obviously, and then I found it. Eventually has become tim has become an assistant. Basically, I didn't yes, yeah, they're. It's aiding these perpetrators in carrying out assaults. Accessory. Yes, they're an UXENARY scessory to the crescent innocence. Yeah, and then I read so because I actually didn't know that Whitney, well of her wolf heard, was harassed at tinder. But now that I read that, I'm like, well, that makes sense. So what they the culture? That from the top down, exactly, and it's going all the way to their fucking APP from the CO founded to the APP. Like that's like these are all so many potential people to barricade. Yes, but then again, I guess CEO like founder of them, of our exact but it's just so telling of the way that we reflect our values in what we make. And it's again, and the thing that surprises me is it takes me back to you again. I will bring up with the hundred time. There's a scene in bombshell, right movie, where essentially Roger Ales, who is a serial committer of sexual assault against employees and he was ahead of Fox News and he was dethroned when it all came out and then immortalized on film and that movie. And there's a scene where there's a settlement deal happening between Rubert Murdoch and Roger Ales. Rubert Murdoch is King of conservatism. Yeah, and yet in that scene I'm not sure actually how the fucking thing went down, but one of the quotes that I remember is when Roger says, you know, like I was giving them something, like they're lying, and Rupe says there's just no side of that argument now there's no one for that side of the story. Yeah, and that's not true. HMM. And the thing is that portrayal in that scene. I'm like, I don't know, I can't imagine Rupert Murdock saying that. But also I think it's so interesting to put that in a film when we know that every single day this happens and we accept it. We are desensities to it, we are saturated in that information. HMM, in every single person I know has a bad date story. Yeah, every single woman I know has been sexually harass at the very least. It runs through us. It's just so apparent to me that this is everywhere and we are so accepting of this behavior because it is so in our faces all the time. Yeah, well, even promising young woman like people barely spoke about that for a movie that I've actually seen a lot. I think it's because my algorithm, because you knew I wanted it. I honestly didn't see very much commentary at all. You saw it late, though. I did see it late, but I didn't see like no commentary made me want to see it earlier. Yeah, yeah, I know that's true. Could have been because of Covid, but I was just like, like, this has not all of these stories do not shake the public. Like we're not shaken by them. Why? The thing is is that obviously happens to everyone, and we think that and more. We mean by that as women, and then we mean ment to but we mean mostly women. Yeah, and so it is because we accept that this will happen to us. Is because we accept that it's a part of being what like and I don't, but we talk much society as a whole. Is it because we accept that this will happen and we accept that we've heard about it and we become desensitized to it. Why? Do we find it like this inherent experience that it's going to happen, if you're going to be in like expose something like this? Yeah, why is it that we accept it from men? HMM, that's a good question. Sorry, I don't really I need to answer it if it's but I think it's fundamental because obviously we think, and I know like the immediate answers are like we're sing Grand Patriarchy and tell us with such a name of Blah, like all these things like get used to because it's everywhere. Yeah, but fundamentally, my question is, like, when these things happen, I still get riled up. MMM, and my question is, why don't other people? Yes, yeah, that's why. Doesn't it boil your blood? Yeah, what? What? What I mean? I'm cynical and I feel like I'm already starting to resign to these facts, like I'm already feeling like obviously, when we said we're going to talk about this today, I was like, Oh God, I've got to work myself up to be angry about it, because I'd spent so long being angry the last couple of days that I had been like I have to fizzle out. Yeah, otherwise I can't keep going. Yeah, and my question is that what happened to other women? Yeah, no, not really, because I might ring my relative and they're like Oh, that happened,...

...and it's like they've not even is it because we separate ourselves so much and our own agency from the the experiences of others? Yeah, and is that why people, I Scott Morrist and like, well, what have happened to my daughters, like M do we get to that point when we get older that it has to happen someone close to us again? Yeah, to really think about the suffering, like why can't we just see someone far away and believe them and feel it? HMM, and I do still and I don't want that fearing to go away because it's important. Yeah, why don't others? What happens? Yeah, I mean that's for some reason, like this one really got me and I got really angry about it, like I was, is like stomping home for you're not surprised either. No, I'm not supposed. Something that's this fury comes from somewhere so innate, because it's not about shock. Yeah, it's, and that's, I think, what of a lot. I think that's wrong with news it's about shock value and this isn't shocking, this is expected. I got angry, like when I so I think. I don't know how I first heard about it, but either you or my sister sent me the link and I was like here we go, here we go again. I didn't even read it at the time. I read the headline and I was like, Oh God, and again like, like I said, not shocked, but I and I didn't read it until I was preparing for this podcast because I was like I need to know the facts of what happened. I'm going to read the whole and Newscom to the article, but I love that I will be best the most informative and the breaking news was news Tocommodation Fusa, owned by Rupert Murder. Why? Why? Anyway? I actually wonder if that had been reported on by the Guardian, how would it have been reported? Because of the Gut the new stopcom to you article was very devoid of any type of anything. It was literally just like then she said this thing in quotes and then she said more. It was because it's breaking news and in a way they just posted. That's what I was wondering. It was a long article. Anyway, my anger did not come from that specific story. It was when I started thinking about it and thinking about the way that the government responded and the way the Senator Asson and the way that the prime minister responded. I just got so angry, and particularly the stuff about how he had to kind of imagine that it was his daughters in order to react. I was like how many times mussies happen before it stops happening? Like, how many times do do I have to watch people be oh my God, this is shaken me to my very cores, you know, in fucking statements, when I know that they are not going to ever think about it again. And the other thing is when we're we have to contextualize it. For men, a lot of the time it's like, oh well, what if, what if that was me? What if that was your daughter? What if that was your sister? When I read about stories like Brittney story, I don't think, oh, that's really horrible because it might happen to me. I think that's really fucking horrible because it's awful and it should never, ever ever happen and why is it happening? But then I do say, maybe it's because I feel the proximity. I'm two years younger than her. Then, when this happened, I was interested for a long time in working in Canbra. Yeah, I was interested in having these experiences. I have a dream career, I have a path and I understand this potential that you could feel I could be ripped out by this sort of experience. Is it because I'm waiting? Is it because I've known someone who had the experience? It's because I feel close to it because of my personal demo, like current state? Maybe, but again, I don't ever want to get to the point where I feel devoid. Yeah, but do you know what I mean? Yeah, but I don't want to say it's I just feel it, because I feel it, because I'm like, that's that they meant. That may not be true. Yeah, it may be, because I see this in others, I see it in myself, like, HMM, achieving this dream role of being a you know, being in camera, would be one of the most exciting things for a young person who wants to enter the political sphere. HMM, and you can, you can fee, you can honestly feel the excitement of finishing university and getting a dream job. Yeah, it's close to us and then you can feel, because we have felt the feelings that you feel after someone violates you in any way it, but if it's not to the same extent. But you know how it made you feel, you know how you responded, you know how it made your friend feel. You've seen the reaction, you've seen the downfall, and it's that. It's like I know because it was within a year that someone told me something like that happened to them, and I wonder it. Maybe it is unfair of me to say, Oh, you know, these people don't understand. Why don't it get what I'm getting at? Because I'm like, well, maybe it's because I am making it about myself and being selfish in the fact that I'm like, I see what's happened to you and it it literally robs me of happiness because I know what's happened to her and it's fucking awful. And you can feel part of it. Yeah, far away, but that doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that others should have not be capable of those feelings. It doesn't mean that, you know, my grandparents just watching US them by, how wow. You know, it's it's confusing because I'm like maybe I am putting myself in that position because it's easier. Yeah, but again, that's as so much about these men in parliament who have no fucking idea. I don't, I actually don't think. I definitely don't have that. I mean consciously I'm...

...not thinking any of those things because I genuinely don't think, think that anything like that would happen to me. And I'm obviously aware that a lot of people think. Don't like think that horrible things not going to happen to me, and I have no there's no reason that I would like compare myself to bringing be like well, wouldn't happen to me, and it's nothing like that. It's just that, naive or not, I don't believe that would happen to me, which is but my feeling is more just the culture. Like again, that's how I felt about I was like again, are you fucking kidding me? Again, like why, how many fucking how many of these new stories do I have to read? Yeah, until people seem to care, even the fraction is like I look around these people, like you've said, and it's like hello, is anybody? Do anyone care? Hi, hello, I don't want the ready article. I'm not fucking reading the contents. No, cry I can't. I'm not reading any of the comments. I don't want to hear from Scott Morrison. I wish he'd never said anything at all. I don't care what any of them have to say. No one can say any honestly, no one can say anything to make me feel differently. Nobody in part no one's cart be repaired because I've had an opportunity in there fucked it. And also the fact that they're so focused on this one issue again, like I think I said this before, but it's it's not just about Brittany. Obviously it's her story and it's very traumatic for her, and I don't mean to dismiss her part in it, but she is one of many, many, many, many people and it's not they're totally missing the point. If they are a poll jazzing to Brittany. Yes, you should apologize to Brittany. You should have done that person, but you should do that me fucking action. That's what she wants. That's why she's telling you. So wonts into calor and be like, I'm really sorry, Brittan, she's not coming to the public. So that you know, Scott Morrison rings her and say is doing your job. Back exactly. She's saying, never let this happen again. Just what every woman is yes, exactly, exactly, and I don't when I I find it difficult sometimes to talk about things that have happened to me or things that have happened to people I know with with men, because they said, Oh, I'm really sorry that happened to you. That's not what I don't second care if you're sorry, not why I'm sharing it with exactly and I don't need you to apologize to me on behalf of all men. I'm not crying if about something. I'm not telling you about something happened to me three years ago so that you sit there and hold my hand exactly because I've been forced to stop thinking about it. Yeah, I am so far from that, even though it's probably still fucking, you know, a bullet in my brain. Yeah, but when I'm telling someone, it's because it's usually because they say like I doesn't happen to everyone, though, and I have to respond by saying well, actually, to me I have to just bluntly traumatize you right now, Ye animation, so that you actually get some perspective. Yeah, immediately, exactly. And then this is actually I've realized. This is the reason why I'm bothered that so many people calling her brave and objectively, she is be she is brave for saying it. I think that we have this kind of I have a connotation around the word brave that I'm just like, stop with this braveness. It is because if I was in her position, I would fucking hate if anyone can turn around and said, you're so brave for sharing your story. The point is not my story, and that she is trying to set up some type of independent body that can stop this from happening. That's how what she has said in her own was why she came out and told the media, so that she can set up something to stop it from happening in the the next time. She doesn't want these people in the interview to be like, I'm really sorry that happened to you, Brittany. That's really sad. I hope you're okay. No, she's not fucking okay. For one thing, she's not gonna be okay because you said sorry. Exactly what is sorry to her, and calling I'm brave is not the complement she wants to hear. Know, what she wants to hear is, Oh, we're going to fucking protest for systemic change. Yeah, exactly. She's not telling you to be complimented on the fact that she told you. Yes, that doesn't make any sense. No, and she's not. She's and she's not going. She didn't call up the Newscom to day you to tell the store tell her own story. That's not actually like the undercurrent of what prompted her to go to the media. She wasn't like, I'm going to share my experience in Parliament House. She wanted to say. This is one example of why we need change in Parliament House, in the Liberal Party, in the coalition whatever, probably in the whole of camera and the whole of the entire world. Frankly, I'm so outraged. The other thing is I don't really know like what to actually do, neither because there are so many people who are not on board, which I think people genuinely don't understand. How many people are not on board with this because they don't want to change. Scott Morrison said something I paraphrasing. He basically said we want women to succeed. Giving people a go is at the core of what we believe in the Liberal Party and we took twenty five percent those twenty one liber pottus twenty three percent women...

...last year. Yes, correct, less than what it was pretty has been previously. Anyway. He said we want women to succeed, but not at the debtch, not at the cost of other people losing anything. That's what he said so and which really encapsulates the problem here, because in order to make this change, women are fifty one percent the pop population. We need more than fifty one percent of the population, and even then not all women are going to be on board for this change. So there's not enough people like I just find it so frustrating, and this is a quite defeatist I try not to be defeatist. Is that the reason it's not changing is because, you know, people might think for a sex split second old this poor woman have very traumatizing whether or not they believe her. They a lot of people think that's very sad for her, but then that is move on with their day. They're not actually willing to do anything. They're not willing to stand up to there's not enough of us who are wanting to create change for it to actually happen and for it to actually make any type of impact. Does how I feel sorry. Remember we talked about bumble. That was fun and you would wanted to give us some a rebirth. Yeah, I can't infuriate yourself. Read one thing every day that makes you furious. I've got to. I've got one that you can start with. There is be no women who have gone to the moon, and I'm furious about that. Only twelve people have been to the moon, but they're all white men. To balance that, follow NASA blueberry on Instagram. She's going to be the first woman in Mars. Yeah, she's sixteen and she's already training to be the first person to walk on Mars. Got A balance. You got a balance. I follow someone that is fucking interesting, a woman, every day. HMM. And I read something that makes me hate the world every day. Yeah, and that's chicken soup for the salt. Yeah, frankly, and a lot of people are not like us, because I like anger is what fuels me, and you know, you can like tell me that it's not sustainable, but guess what, I fucking is suss saying that this far, and I will continue to. I need to. It's what motivates me. I like to feel these things and turning it off isn't going to help. No, well, when I I think I was on, I like had some time off. I think I was sick. Anyway, around the time that RBG died, R GB Ruth Bading IR BG Yes, died, and I watched like in a week, I watched her the documentary and the movie based on her life, and I kind of like watch them over a period of four days, like half half and then half half, and that really just I just got so angry and I was just so efficient on those four days. Yeah, it was hard because I watched the on the basis of sex movie about rbgle weeks ago, but unfortunately it was as the army hammer and it was breaking some yes, furious, multiple reasons, and I was like I can't look at him. Yeah, space, that you anger. I've been watching for all mankind. It's on apple and it's about space, which is why I'm curious about the moon thing. And it is like it's said in the seventy I think I'm mighty sure. Go Go to mood still. Sorry, it's sorry, I show no woman has gone to the moon. No, I checked on the Wiki page because I was so outragel keep say try. Yeah, I checked my receipt read one great article a day. So basically it's like an alternate reality where the Soviets beat the Americans to the moon and they are very upset about it. Oh, it's really good. You should watch it anywhere. In typical American fashion, they're very upset and they can't let it go and then like a different president gets in, based on anyway alternate reality. But essentially this isn't really a spoil are but they kind of they train up a team of women as astronauts and it kind of like does chronicle a couple of women like infiltrating NASA and actually getting somewhere with NASA. It's really good. I love space movies. Me To I love space. And then some rocket company on in Australia followed me and I was like, after you watched it. Yes, that's fucked, I know. But then I was like, are they recruiting me, because I will happily go to the moon. You don't want to do that? No, I don't, but I want to be asked. You would like to be alone for that, but not withoutening, exposed to all the training turn the moon like. It's just not really my thing. I'm too tall. Really have to under eighty kilos and be under a certain heart, because I wouldn't oh. Well, one I one like equals one. Sad for Hannah, I mean I accepted at a young age. I moved on, all right. Well, inclosing, stay angry and when you get old, don't turn conservative. Don't just when you want to vote liberal on a card in five...

...years. Don't do it. I'll have a think about if Brittany was your daughter. Yeah, just have a think about that. Just imagine, hopefully contextualize, buck, if you found us just totally relatable at work. You come back next Wednesday for a new episode. Until then, head to cheek. MEDIACOM did a you to tie you over until then. By good day.

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