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The Weekly Cheek
The Weekly Cheek

Episode · 1 year ago

45. Is the progressive left an exclusive club?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we're talking about what we think are the downfalls of the progressive left. Is the left exclusionary? Should we be making progressive content more accessible? Does the left get in its own way? Should we be more empathetic to those who don't align with us politically?

Find us online at cheekmedia.com.au and on socials @cheekmediaco  

Hello, I'm Christen Parison Otto and I'm had a focuson and where co founders of Cheek mediac this is the weekly Cheek podcast. I'm really struggle with that. Those certain topics, like prison abolition, where I felt like, oh, sorry, I haven't read the Communist manifest or fuck, hold fuck, but like if someone was just like define socialism, I'd be like Oh, F like even the other day when someone was like your socialist trash, I was like, Oh, quite, does that mean? that on t shirt, but I'm going to Google it first. Welcome back to the weekly Cheek podcasts. Welcome, welcome. We today are talking about an issue very close to her heart. I would say, yeah, I think it is very close to our heart. It probably has a lot to do with why we started a cheek and the question we're asking ourselves and each other today. I mean, it's about US too. It is US two. Wow, what we gonna say? The suspense is about the Progressive Left and the movement being exclusionary. Yeah, I think it's about, like, you know, the problems of the radical left in being and I mean I'm just saying a synonym, which she just sounds going to say not inviting some and not be very welcoming. Yeah, I'll be real encouraging of especially the sort of center moderate actually, that is an interesting place to start, because in the past, when I have been in radical left like circles and groups, that have been times that I'm like wow, my Centauri. I think I completely agree with that. Like in in the past I have been engaged in conversation and different movements where I felt like I'm a centrist as well, like just from the sort of rhetoric that's been around us. I think that there's differences where I felt so far away from the left. I felt like so like I couldn't keep up. Yeah, like I was just every single week was something that I was like, am I saying that wrong? I felt so afraid to speak. I'm not saying like Oh my God, the left is holding me hostage with, you know, new ideas, like. I don't think it's like that. I think it's the way that we expect people to constantly be...

...across everything and constantly be right and constantly just be so aware of everything new and changing, and it's really, really tough sometimes, and I don't think that's a conversation that people have a lot. No, I don't think so either. I and I think that I would assume, based on conversations that I've had with people, that nearly, like most people in these spaces feel like feel almost like imposter syndrome. It's like, Oh my God, when is someone going to there's just this feeling of like someone's going to like cancel me for something that I said or something I've done. Like I remember, I can't of I can't even think of an example. But even in I've been in groups of for where it's because I'm Vegan. He so I'm better than everyone. Obviously. All right, guys, I still eat the chickens and I almost felt like there were times when I was in those groups before I was Vegan, but I wasn't even a vegetarian. I just ate meat and war leather and or did all those things, and I would ask, like we'd be going for lunch and I would ask always anyone vegetarian and they are still be like oh no, but like I'm really trying to be like but I like I don't eat. Meet on Monday's and it's kind of like that's all, like it's okay, I'm not. I like to do that, though. Yeah, it's almost like it's a loaded question. It's not, because I would ask so I can be like, Oh, let's pick somewhere that has something for everyone to eat. But it was taken as a really loaded question. That was like are you like a good, you know, environmentalist, like do you care about the animals? Because if you're not vegetarian, then you're like, you know, you don't belong in this radical left space. Yeah, and now when, because I'm was so aware of that before I was Vegan. I always like am I don't really like saying I'm Vegan because of that reason in certain spaces, like I will only say it like when, you know, someone asked for my dietaries for an event or I get down to like, you know, picking some of the something...

...off the menu, because I just feel like it just makes people feel really uncomfortable, which is definitely I mean, it's not my problem, you know. It's like honestly at the end of the day and makes it's your problem if you feel bad. That sounds horrible, but it is, like it's not. I'm not like gonna, you know, give you a whack for eating meat, but it does make me feel really conscious of where and when. I'm talking about the fact that I don't eat me and dairy wow, schooled schools. So what do you think of the problems with the left, the primary problems and and obviously the thing is is that we are the left as well. Like I would say that, when I step back from those conversations, I am part of the radical left. Like, I think at my call, my intentions and what I want for politics, what I want for this country and what I want at a global scale, would align me as being radical left, which should be the only quantifier. Yes, but it's not. It's not. I think it's because it comes down to language and getting the terminology of everything right all the time, and I think that that like sort of exclusionary nature comes from, like you know, I think even taking a moment to enter into a new idea, to say something like prison abolition. I think we've talked about this before. I struggled initially with the idea of abolishing prisons and, you know, like okay, what would we do? Like I think that I was constantly like I don't understand, like if I're not locking away people that are danger to society, like I don't understand what we would be doing. Like, yeah, I think that a lot of people that are in jail do should not be there. I'm totally against the current, you know, criminal age responsibility in Australia. Like I think I'm a radical person, but when this idea of abolition for prisons came and I was like I don't know, like I've never thought about that before. I've always just thought Serialal Abad put away, like I couldn't go outside of that space and I think that I felt really excluded from the conversation because I couldn't see beyond that. And then I think I watched like a...

...youtube video. There's a particular like activist on Instagram I followed who really broke it down and I was like Oh, I understand what you mean by that now. Yeah, like I think the idea is quite aggressive, when it's actually broken down into what the intention is behind the idea from the left, it really makes sense. And I actually think that's one of the biggest issues that the left faces in terms of getting their ideas across politically, because I think that when you say these things like prison abolition, what the far right, the right and even the center here is is a lot different to what we actually mean when we say what we want the changes to be to get to that place eventually. Also, the word abolish is just very aggressive. Yeah, I think it's this hardcore language that we use and I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, but I'm saying it's UNINVITING, yeah, to the untrained ear. And the other thing is I've been in plenty of spots, and you probably have to, where you hear the term. Like when I first heard terms like prison abolition, it's a perfect example, because it is one of those ideas that it does turn people off. I think I was like prison abolition, like Oh, that sounds like archaic, like what it because because when someone just says it in passing, it's like it sounds as though we're going to close the prisons and then release the criminals into the wild. Yeah, and I'm like, I don't want to be walking down the street and like know that there are rapists and murderers who were previously in prison because they're, you know, they're still they're out there who have been previously in prison and have been let go because we've by close all the prisons. But I've in those in those spaces and at those times and in those like events, I have never felt comfortable to be like Oh, like, excuse me, what is that and what does it entail, because then it's kind of like, I don't know, you just feel like, Oh, I'm like an idiot and I'm not working up to be here and I should have, you know, like done some prerequisite reading before coming to this event. Yeah, even if it's just social event, because I'm not prepared and it's just not often those places are not welcoming spots to ask questions have a conversation.

Yeah, I think the issue being that there's this a something that you completely band wagon straight away and you're just expected to always heighten that view all the time, and it's exhausting. Yeah, because, like, and I'm not defensive of anyone in the right when I say this, like I'm not saying, oh, but the love should be nice. So, like, that's not what I'm saying. I am the left. I don't fucking be nicer. I think it's the way that we talk about these things. I think it's the academic language. I think it's this threshold of expectation. It's really, really high. Yeah, like I don't think that we're very welcoming to say, if an older person is trying to learn more and come into more of a feminist space, where still judging them by decisions that they've made years ago from there they've come so far. It's kind of like, and something I really struggle with his like when, say, we see an influencer or someone who's famous, for an activist right, and we see a two thousand and twelve message on facebook where they've seen something to say, something derogatory. Yeah, and we're like canceled. And I struggle with that because I'm like, everyone has said something they regret, everyone has done something regrettable. It depends on what it is, it depends on how much that action has been changed, it depends on the way that they respond that being brought up. Like there's a lot of variables in the situation, but I think it's hard because the standards that we hold people too as people are unfair, especially in the left. It's like it's toxic, because I think it's like we don't give people room for development and to apologize and say I'm actually going to do better. Yeah, I think sometimes you don't think it's the way the people go about it. I think Georgea love is another great example. I didn't I did. Wasn't sure if I was going to bring this up, but I'm not saying George Love is Figiveafore, if we start there, I think George. So essentially what happened is George Love, who was a former Bachelorette. She's quite a popular influence. So she works to channel seven news now as a reporter. She posted a she shared a video to instagram that was absolutely racially in sensitive. It was a racist video that was referencing a cat. There was a video of a cat in the like a window of a restaurant and the the caption was something like, you know, is this like...

...the server or, you know, third of the meal? Yeah, is it is? Yeah, is this the patron or the meal, referring to the cat? Yeah, and she shared it and as like a funny meme video and obviously copit. A lot of flight for it because it's racist, and then she's deleted it, but she's put up an apology on her instern this is a couple of weeks ago now, and the apology that she put up was basically saying like Oh, I didn't even think this was racist. Like that's like not the angle I came from when I saw this video. HMM, which is not how you do an apology, know, when it was like sorry, you were offended. Yeah, it was like sorry, offended, I didn't mean it that way. Yeah, it wasn't acknowledging that it was clearly racist, and I think that, like, I frankly think it's a light to say something like that. You didn't have that realization or make that connection. And also also like it's your responsibility, especially if you have a platform, but just at being a like a privileged white woman in the world, and she is very privileged. To just think about it. Yeah, I don't think it's that difficult to just come out and say, like, Oh, I fucked up, yeah, and I promised to do better and this is how I'm going to do better. And I'm not saying that that like cancels out everything that's been done, but I think that's the way you need to approach this. First, by just laying on the table that you've done something wrong. Yeah, I think the fact that she was hiding behind like, oh, I didn't intend it that way or I didn't even see that is like it resonates with me in the same way that it's someone who says, like I don't see color. Yeah, like, okay, what, how do people understand? That's such a privilege. Yeah, but it's also just like because you're white and you have been instrument as what you're saying is you don't see racism, you don't acknowledge the challenge, you don't age knowledge of the differences. Like, I don't think that's tough, and having that conversation is the first thing. Is like ignoring your privilege, negating the entire act itself is the problem there for me exactly, and it was just the worst thing you could have done. And I'm not saying, Oh my God, Go away forever, George Love. That's also problematic. So not give people the space to improve. But I think it's a great example of like, that's not how you do it. And to circle back,...

...and I think fits in really well. I think this kind of critique, this kind of critique, is not what we're talking about when we talk about the left being exclusionary, like I think they're very there are times when stuff like this happens and it's so blatantly obvious for anyone who has any kind of social conscience and who has, you know, like we always say, like done one minute of critical thinking, that there are things that you don't do, and I think that in these sits scenarios and based on like how these both of these two white women have responded, has been like you totally ignorant, exactly, you don't even you don't even care, like you don't even not even putting in the effort into pretending to care. And then there are lots of people who I think are trying really hard and, like I know in the past, for me sounds like so well to say, Oh, yeah me, everyone, give me an applause, but like I have tried really hard to, you know, make sure that I am putting in my own putting in time to educate myself about issues, only to feel like I have like done something wrong in these like very radical spaces because, you know, maybe I have used like the incorrect terminology or maybe I don't know what prison abolition means. And I think, I just think there is a difference, like you can, I think the left generally, certain spaces of the left, need to understand when people are genuinely trying to put to put in the time and the effort and genuinely trying to like unlearn a lot of the stuff that we have learned. So the thing is I grew up in a small town, like there's a lot of stuff that I had I'd get with the program when I moved here to Brisbane, because I was like wow, it's like this is not the vibes, like I had to do and I feel like I almost had to pretend like I was like pretend like it came naturally to me and I always knew that makes sense. But I think...

...in the same space, like I'm moved from, like I grobbing my teen years in a country town as well, and you know, I also came from a family that we're very conservative in terms of voting, political views, Blah. So I felt like I had to get with a program in different ways to it. I feel like I've tried really hard to do that and I also hold hold a lot of shame for what I've said in the past. Like I can remember times in your eleven and twelve or I definitely would have like verbally, in front of friends, argued for the Liberal Party. Oh, queen, Queen, because genuinely. That's that's all the commentary heard at home. Yeah, like from my parents, like, I mean again, a lot of it was like Pro Malcolm turble, which I don't have a problem with still. Yeah, but like my parents would say things about the carbon tax or about this or about that, or about gay marriage or about whatever, and I would just hear that rhetoric and be like yeah, okay. And I think it's important to understand the difference between like, you know, say like luckily you went tweeting at that time, otherwise, but I was messaging probably, yeah, but it's not public information. Like I think there is a difference between being a product of your upbringing when you are young and then putting in the effort to, yeah, learn more. Like I was talking to someone progressive like a week and a half ago. This is so crazy, I can't believe that it happened, and I was like talking about redacted. I don't want to put in this information, but I was talking about progressive politics and, like you know, the whole trope of like you know, my sister and I have to unite for the for the left when we go to family events, and she was like, is your family conservative? And I was like, Duh, excuse is me, like, isn't fugging everyone's like the amount of people who I did not know until that time. I'm like, wow, lots who have actually grown up with like people. She was probably a little bit younger than me, but only...

...a couple of years, mid S I would say. has grown up just with like left parents and it's just all being taught to her in her upbring I was like Holy Shit, like I was like yes, they can, like my family's conservative. fucking did this myself, like I forget this stuff out myself, and I don't think I actually have. Not I've ever done myself credit for that until this very memento. Were talking about it, like I've never thought about it that way until we're talking about it right now. Yeah, I've never been like Oh, that was actually a good thing. That was like bigger than I thought it was. And how many people do you know from like these, you know, exclusionary left spaces who have just been brought up that way? I would say quite a few when I really think about it, and like people who have grown up the whole lives in Brisbane. You know, people like I'm my job is like pretty political now. A lot of people I work with their you know, it's in the family, like politics is in their blood and they understand and they've been involved in, you know, volunteering in campaign since since they were kids. HMM. Like for me, I absolutely not, like I had to, like, yeah, find those spaces myself and like fill in the gaps myself. I think that's why I can feel so harsh. Yeah, I think because you go into this space and someone says something that you are like, Oh God, like I've never heard of that before, or I didn't know that was the thing, and I because I really, really like retract into myself, like I get really, really upset. I'm like, Oh my God, I just have to be really silent right now because I don't know what people are talking about. Yeah, and I'm really struggle with that. Those certain topics like prison abolition, where I felt like, oh, sorry, I haven't read the Communist manifest or fuck, I'll fuck, you know, like I get really it's scary sometimes, you know that people have and I haven't taken political science courses and I don't know certain things. And a lot of what I'm talking about is from, like I read the news every day. I do this, I do that, but sometimes the foundational undepending stuff, I'm like, I'm completely missing this block of information. I don't know where I missed it makes sense now you know where I missed it. Yeah,...

...at home, exactly. And even just like even sometimes these terms, like a term like socialism, I'm just like what, quite is that? When is that? Like I know the idea and I know the basic differences between socialism and communism, but like, if someone was just like de fine, socialize, I'm I'd be like, oh Fu like even the other day when someone was like your socialist trash, I was like, Oh, quite, does that mean? that on t shirt, but I'm going to Google it first. Not to say like I'm we're not. I'm not saying I I don't know anything about these terms, but I don't have a glossary on my wall to refer back to. I don't have, like you know again, I don't have that exposure to the political theory three and a lot of the stuff that underpins the left. Yeah, all I know is that I fucking Hate Sky News, Antonia, Abbot, same and many others. But I think I'm also on that. That's something I want to mention is the language that the left users. It's always very academic, I think, or not always, I should say. We're generalizing, but a lot of the times it is very academic and it has a lot of these terms that I just not you know, they're alienating, exactly, rader, exactly. They're not really in vocabulary. I've mentioned this before on a podcast. They VAT like I have had. I have two degrees and they've been times that I've read an instagram post and I'm like, what is that? That ain't it? Exactly the thing I think, and I'm not saying that every person in the space of progressive the progressive left needs to be doing this, but sometimes what I think is like, okay, as an organization, as a company, as whatever you are, sometimes it's just as powerful to focus on those immediate transitions instead of gatekeeping. So what I mean is something like having conversations about what feminism is at its call and breaking down those complex ideas and just having a discussion with someone that may not agree with you is a really powerful thing and it's also really underrated. Yeah, there is power and being able...

...to disagree with someone in a healthy way. Yeah, and I think that's completely negated in the left. Sometimes it's like it in fighting through the left is one of its biggest issues. Right, and I think that sometimes focusing on getting someone who is a very like, very much a centrist or a moderate and saying, Hey, have you held about from this way, and want when I say I'd like climate action, and this is, you know, what we're aiming for, and breaking that down can be a transitional conversation instead of jumping to and I'm not saying it shouldn't exist, but I'm saying like coming at people from the angle of like something so strong like prison abolition, is so alienating for people who are centrists or in the right. Yeah, and I think that we actually neglect having those core conversations that are close to the middle and we instead opt for this really radical viewpoint because we think if we go really left and they go really right, we'll meet some in the middle, when in actual fact, I think there's power and having, you know, a great bulk of the left having those powerful conversations with their parents or someone that can be turned at the voting booth right. Yeah, that's a huge difference and that can be more powerful change or just as powerful change, instead of jumping to the most left idea that you can exactly, because then people are not going to join you. And I think like we should be as people who are like left leaning, left wing. Whenever I think left leaning, I think it's just like slightly to the left. But yeah, the people who are left should our main goal not to be to get more people over here and then the people that you can kind of swing other people in the center. A lot of the people in the right done deal, probably not going to come over, specially they're more radical right, but get because they not worried. That'll take care of its like kind. But it is really important to engage people in welcoming way if you actually have your eyes set on the main goal, which is to move everyone further left. Well, that's right. And when you said that one of the left's...

...downfalls is the in fighting, I also this. It really bugs me because that's what conservatives say about us, is that. I the like that exactly and I hate that it's a trope that we are like accepting, excepting, but also kind of living out. Yeah, actively executing exactly, and I said this in a podcast a a little like a few episodes ago, that one of the things that they, the the conservatives, also like said they so the Conservatives do critique us for in fighting, but they always they also criticize us for being like sensitive snow flakes and how you know, it's all about feelings with the left and while I agree that empathy is at the core of most leftist policies and belief systems, I think that we should try to employ some of that empathy for the people that we're having these discussions with who don't fully aligned with us. I just think it's really bizarre, like, you know, a lot of lefties will like die on a heel for fighting for the rights of, you know, refugees, indigenous rights, you know, children in prison, things like that, because it's seen as like those are the people who need out. I guess, more privileged voices to join their cause, not overpower it, join the cause so that change can be made. And a lot of the left is, you know, looking out for and making change in the interest of people who are more marginalized. So I'm just not really sure where that empathy goes when we are then being exclusionary and very gay, keeping of our spaces. Yeah, because, and part of me thinks it's just a bit like white safory clee and like again, White Saviors. Is another term like prison abolition, that people just like, Oh my God, what you're saying? That? I can't help like no,...

...please look it up before you get into a fight. I think it's more about the fact that people hear the term, which is the leading term in that out of that topic, like what's actually what is the echo chamber produced the goods on to Sky News is like white saviorism. Yeah, it's a fucking important topic, yes, and it's a really powerful information is to how you go about doing anything right. Yeah, but when someone like fucking Andrew Bolt gets hold of these terms of fucking Alan Jones, you can see how it's easy to spin exactly. I'm not saying, Oh, we must go through the glossary and we must change, but I think it's about having the conversations that don't try to alienate people by like going this high level complex explanation. Instead go what we mean when we say that is exam just having that conversation and I think it I absolutely agree. We are gate keeping certain spaces from people, and I don't know why, because our number one priority should be getting people on board exactly. That's really my thing. I'm not saying that, you know, we shouldn't be fighting for prison abolition. I'm saying we shouldn't be providing for all of these things, but I think that the number one priority should be that we go into these other spaces like talk to our parents, talk to our younger siblings, talk to different people and actually just have a really comfortable conversation. And not everyone can do this. I can't do all of the time. I get rather up very easily and there's people you can't do it with. But and but it's something that I've tried really hard to develop lately, especially of the last day, twelve months is, especially during the pandemic. I Find I've gone from like a really staunch like go fuck yourself if you're not getting vaccinated, whereas now I'm just a bit like I like, okay, well, I'm not going to approach someone who's anti vaxs. I'm going to approach someone who's vaccine hesitant and have a comfortable conversation about why they're hesitant. Yeah, that's so much more powerful for me than, you know, exhausting myself and having a fourteen hour lie down because I've just gone to battle. HMM, actually, this is really funny. Last night my partner got really drunk at a grand final game thing, which I violently oppose because it's a grand final. But when numb when I got home I was like so, what have you been doing while I've been gone, and he said, Oh, I've been going on through the...

Gold Coast Bulletin and commenting against really far right people. Graph. What's the grid vine? Okay, and was like you're a fucking idiot. Rob Vaccines One. So that's the endio. This is what we've been saying today. But I'm also like, good for you, because you had a big problem with the gold goes bullets and lately because they've been like and as soon as your prowess at closing the border says reduced numbers for Nippers, like literally, that was their head by the other day, like it's ridiculous. I'm David has always had a bit of problem with the Gold Coast Bulletin. Yeah, it's a really weird thing. It is awful. It's I mean it's a murder the Korean mail? Is that for me, Daily Mail as well. But yeah, I think maybe the curer, because the gold coast is like a pocket of really conservative people. So in some ways I think sometimes the Gold Coast Bulletin is actually even more extreme than the yea mail. Yeah, because they are so dangerous. Exactly. Sorry, back to it. Back to it. I prefer to. I just love reporting people. Yeah, have a missing it's my favorite thing. That's all I can really do for an anti vaxxer. It's going through and report that post. Yeah, that's like the most valuable thing, because having the conversation is only going to upset me. And I'm not saying that to activists that do that. There's no power in that, but it's like the way I like to spend my time is talking to the people that are on the cusp. That just feels right to me exactly. And for me reporting it, it's not so much about like, Haha, you'll get your video taken down, it's more that it will hopefully now few less people will see it. Yeah, who are who might be able to be swayed by those opinions? Absolutely, and I think that that's sort of what we gaime for with cheek, we weren't aiming to go into the spaces of like hard left topics. What we wanted to do is get normal political topics and break them down. We wanted to look at the facts, the stats and make politics digestible and accessible, with accessible for people, especially people who are interested in progressive politics and entertaining. Yes, thank you. And I think just one more thing before we finish. I think that another thing that really bugs me about the left, and I also...

...am like kind of contribute to this, but I try not to, is the first all the hesitants to accept slow progress, but second of all, the like refusal to celebrate a win. And this is something we actually wrote about it when we first launch cheek, because it was just when trump lost the election. This is a big one for me too, exactly, and everyone was just like well, Biden's no, no fucking good either, like yes, but he was the other option. There were two options, like in you know, we've got two party preferred politics in most of the Western world, including Australia, for example, the upcoming election that's probably happening next year. We've got Scott Morrison and we've got Alban easy. I don't. Alban easy is not my faith. No, I think he is a bit quiet and I think he needs to do more stuff and I think he needs to be out there. More good in put but more stuff, doing stuff, and me thank you, not peas and corn find off, but I just like those are the two options. Like, people don't understand that. I know they are independence, there are Greens, but when we're talking about the leader, the major party in control, we have the liberal National Coalition and we have the Labor Party. Well, if the Labor Party wins, I don't want to fucking see the night of the election, people being like well, our we needy sucks as well, like he is better and we do need to be like you can take a fucking break and like celebrate a win, even if it's small. Otherwise you're just going to burn yourself out and like be miserable forever. Also, when we be happy, what is the decision or the change that will make you happy exactly? Because the other thing is like, say, in the future the Greens become a major party in Australia and they are making up. God, let's say we have a Greens prime minister. Even when we get there, they're. By that time there is going to be another more progressive small party or independent and we're going to be like why aren't they? They're they're better. The Greens have these...

...x amount of problems, like there are a lot of problems that that grow when you are a major party like even and there are specific problems that face the left leaning Major Party, which it is late left leaning. When it comes to Australian politics, I was trying federal politics, like it's never going to be, like you never going to be fully happy. I don't think and I think that you just need to accept, like this is better and this is progress and like be okay with that for even if it's just for a fucking week, and then like get back on it. I just think that it's just not because, again, that that turns people away because like, well, the let's never happy. There's about. You can see why we wouldn't be, but I completely agree. Yeah, but you can't. You can be for a day. That's the thing, like and be. You can be. I went buying one the election. I was like this is great, yeah, thank God that man is like gone and we hopefully never have to think about him again. But then where as things start to progress when you see what like, as you when you start to see what Biden's doing and like his first hundred days in politics was quite astonishing in a good way. Like I was really amazed with how much he actually did. I don't agree with him on everything, but I think it's okay to be like that. Is really great progress for America, especially based on what they've been through for the last four years. There is a difference exactly. If you found us just totally a relatable at work, you come back next Wednesday for a new episode. Until then, head to cheek. Mediacom Donn a you to tie you over until then. By Good Baye.

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